Listen:
(Full episode transcript below show notes)
Welcome back! This week, I’m talking about self-publishing and traditional publishing, specifically in response to a question from listener Edward. He wanted to know if, after nine exhausting years of polishing and querying his novel, it was time to “self-publish it now and move on? [Or] should I be true to my original goal and persevere?”
It’s a complicated question, and I think a lot of writers struggle with it and many of the issues surrounding it. And despite my own biases, I would love to hear about your experiences and opinions regarding self- vs. traditional publishing. Share your thoughts in the comments below!
Links Mentioned:
- The Talking Scared Podcast, Episode #003: Spotify | Apple Podcasts
- Sarah’s indie (self-published) audio drama, Girl In Space
- The Write Now Podcast Discord Community
As always, thank you for listening, and I’d love to hear your thoughts in the comments below the transcript!
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Full Episode Transcript:
Sarah Rhea Werner (00:00):
This is the Write Now Podcast with Sarah Werner, Episode 162: Should I Self-Publish?
(00:27):
Welcome to Write Now, the podcast that helps all writers — aspiring, professional, and otherwise — to find the time, energy, and courage you need to pursue your passion and write. I’m your host, Sarah Werner, and today we’re going to be talking about self-publishing and traditional publishing.
(00:47):
When I talk about traditional publishing, I’m talking about going through a publisher — so getting an agent, submitting your manuscript, and going with an existing publisher who will then publish and distribute your book. When I talk about self-publishing, I’m talking about doing it yourself.
(01:08):
I want to be very, incredibly, super clear right from the start that I’m not going to tell you which publishing method is right for you. In fact, if you go through the backlog of this podcast, this is actually a topic that I’ve largely avoided. That’s because there are just so many factors surrounding your decision, whether you would like to publish your work through a traditional publisher or by yourself, and I am not in any way certified or qualified to tell you which one is better or right for you.
(01:43):
Now, I’m talking about this today because I received a question from a listener over in the Write Now podcast Discord that summed up, I think really well, some of the current frustrations that a lot of you might be going through with your creative work at this time. It is a very weird time to be an author and to be publishing or to be trying to become published. I don’t know if that grammatically made sense, but here we are. And again, there are so many people who are better qualified than I am to go into the ins and outs of where the traditional publishing industry is today, but I want to speak to some of the life decisions and some of the feelings that you might be going through as you wrestle with this decision.
(02:36):
So — here’s the question I received from podcast listener Edward. Edward says, “Hi. I could use some encouraging and thoughtful feedback. I finished writing a novel that I’m probably a little too emotionally invested in, and I’ve been working on it and refining it for about nine years. In that time period, I’ve submitted it to 74 agents. I’ve had a couple full manuscript requests, but mostly rejections. I told myself that I should try to get at least a hundred submissions, then consider self-publishing. I’d really like to see it out there just for my own satisfaction, but I understand that it could be a whole lot better if I had the collaborative magic that comes from going via traditional publishing editors, agents, et cetera. But I’m tired — really tired. Is it giving up or lazy to just self-publish it now and move on? Should I be true to my original goal and persevere, or should I embrace the freedom and enjoyment that could come from self-publishing it my own way? I should add, I’m a graphic designer, so I will have no problem making my novel look professional. I’ve gone back and forth and I just can’t decide.”
(03:53):
So again, that was a question submitted by podcast listener Edward, but I think that it might resonate with some / many / all of you.
(04:06):
I want to start with Edward’s concern that he is quote too emotionally invested in his work: I have good news for you. You are not too emotionally invested in your work. You created this book — and to everyone else listening, whatever it is you’re working on, you’re creating this. You created this. It’s part of you. You’ve put your heart and your soul into this piece of work. It’s yours, and more than that, it’s you. It’s a representation of you in the world.
(04:38):
When you publish something, people attach what you’ve published, what you’ve outright declared, as part of who you are. I’ve had people who listen to Girl In Space, my audio fiction podcast, who feel like they know me because they’ve listened to my work. And similarly, Girl In Space is a deeply personal project. I wrote that originally to come to terms with a lot of things that were going on in my life at the time — relationships, work circumstances, looking for a new way to live and thrive. I put myself on the page, and I think that you probably do, too. You created something. You’re proud of it, and it’s yours. I don’t think you are too emotionally invested in it. I think that being emotionally invested in your work is healthy.
(05:35):
Now, if you get to the point where you are precious with your work — and by that I mean, someone agrees to publish it, but they want you to make a few changes and you just dig in your heels and you say no — then you’re kind of getting into a little too-attached territory. I think there’s a balance between knowing and loving your own work and standing up for the piece of art that you have created and believe in, and then not agreeing to correct your spelling mistakes, or not listening when an editor says that there is a giant plot hole in the middle. So there is a balance there. But, given this question, no — you are not too emotionally invested.
(06:19):
Second, and I think this is going to resonate for a lot of us, but Edward talking about being tired — really tired — spoke to me. I understand what you mean when you say that you are tired within your work. I’ve been working on season two of Girl In Space for actual years at this point, and I love it and I am making progress on it, and I am learning a lot along the way, but… oh my gosh, sometimes when I open up that file, I get this deep sense of weariness and exhaustion. I also understand being tired within the process. You’ve sent this to so many editors, agents, et cetera. You’ve submitted it. You’ve poured hope and emotional energy into this. You’ve given it so much, and it just continues not to land. I understand how that is exhausting.
(07:18):
I also want to acknowledge that we are living in a very exhausting time right now — a constant barrage of news and politics and bad things happening, getting sick, caring for sick loved ones, doing more and more work for what feels like less and less pay, fighting so hard every day just to realize that tomorrow you’re going to have to wake up and fight all over again. And then you combine all of that with a culture that glorifies the hustle and sneers at people who just want a break. I understand, and I think a lot of the people listening right now will understand that as well.
(08:02):
So your question, is it giving up or lazy to just self-publish it now and move on? Should I be true to my original vision and persevere? First of all, self-publishing is not lazy, and it is not giving up. Self-publishing takes a lot of work in its own right, and just as much commitment. It’s a very entrepreneurial approach to getting your work published, and it’s taking control and responsibility for a lot of the things that in a traditionally published situation someone else might deal with. So I’m not going to say that one way is more difficult, one way is easier, one way is less stressful, et cetera, because everybody’s experience is going to be unique.
(08:49):
I think a more important question to ask yourself at this point is: what does it mean to you to be traditionally published versus self-published? If you have your heart set on being traditionally published, and the idea of self-publishing feels like giving up or being lazy to you, I’d really encourage you to ask yourself: what’s at stake here for you in choosing one or the other? It sounds like — and I know this is true for a lot of writers — it sounds to me like being traditionally published is a means of validation for you as a writer, and that’s not a bad thing. Being published by a publishing company means that somebody else believes in your work. It means they vetted your work. It gives it a little bit of a trust signal when people see, oh, this is published by a big publisher.
(09:44):
So you have to ask yourself: would you be okay self-publishing your work, and what would that mean to you? What would that mean in your eyes about you, about your work? This isn’t something I can answer for you. Obviously, this is an important element that really contributes to whether you see your career / your work as a writer as being successful and fulfilling. What matters to you in this process?
(10:14):
And there’s no right answer and no wrong answer. There’s no “morally correct” way to publish your work or to get your work published. I mean, okay, if you lie and cheat and steal to do it, that is morally bad, so don’t do that. But the method of publication itself is morally neutral, so whether self-published or traditionally published, I encourage you to maybe do some journaling or introspective thought or talk with a friend about what’s going on here, and what you’re feeling and why.
(10:50):
I also really understand and connect with the idea that, “Oh, it’s always been my dream to be published by a publisher. It’s always been my dream to be traditionally published. It’s always been my dream to walk into a bookstore and see my book on the shelf to feel validated and successful.” That was my dream, too. Growing up — I grew up in love with books, and all I ever wanted to do was be an author. And when I was growing up, self-publishing wasn’t really an option. There was vanity publishing, where you paid a lot of money to have your book published and marketed, but self-publishing as it is today hadn’t really been… I don’t want to say “invented” yet, but it didn’t really exist yet in the way it does now with the dawn of the internet.
(11:43):
I grew up in the ’80s and then the ’90s and 2000s, and sometime around after I graduated from college, I started hearing about people who were self-publishing their own books, and I was like, “Oh, what, is that legit? Am I allowed to do that?” And then I started seeing people who had self-published their books making a lot of money and getting book deals, et cetera. A lot of really popular and well-known books have started off or even still exist as self-published works, for a number of different reasons.
(12:15):
I’m going to keep using this as an example, but when I started Girl In Space, I published it as a podcast, so I published it myself. I self-published it for free. It’s kind of the downside of podcasting, is you make this thing and you hope that maybe people throw you a few dollars for it. But yeah, I self-published it essentially, and it was pretty successful, and I realized that I liked the way that felt. I liked being, for better or for worse, in charge of every aspect of what I was creating. I chose the music. I made sure there weren’t any copyright things going on. I did all the writing. I chose the actors. I ran it past editors and friends, of course, because everybody — no matter how good of a writer you are, everybody needs an editor. So if you do self-publish, I encourage you to not just write your book and then submit it for self-publishing; write your book and then have somebody else, pay somebody else, barter with somebody else, to take a look at it and to make any changes, to offer suggestions. Because when it comes to our work, I think we have both a very expansive and a very limited view of what we create and what we are creating. It makes your work better in the long run.
(13:42):
But yeah, I essentially self-published season one of Girl In Space, and I found that it was deeply satisfying. I loved writing it. I loved producing it. It felt great to see reviews coming in… most of them. It was a really cool experience. And I realize now that if I had tried to pitch the project to Audible or to another podcasting network, if I had tried to pitch it and wait for somebody to say, “Oh, okay, yes, that sounds like a good idea, we’ll help you with that”… If I would’ve done that, I would’ve never made Girl In Space.
(14:21):
And this is just me. I’m not saying this is prescriptive, or this is anybody else’s experience, but if I would’ve had to wait, if I had been given a chance to second guess myself, I wouldn’t have published at all. I would’ve written a pitch, I would’ve created a pitch deck, I would’ve sent it out and waited, and most likely I would’ve received a big “No”.
(14:45):
And it’s interesting now that I’m in a position where I have talked to publishers about writing a book — Girl In Space-related or otherwise. It seems less glamorous. It seems constricting. It seems like compromising and giving away a lot of the control that I enjoy having over my work — you know, as a raging narcissist. I’m going to create a second audio fiction series and I’m going to do it by myself again. I don’t want to pitch, I don’t want to write a prospectus or whatever it is that you would write. I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to have to convince somebody else that my work is worth creating when I can create it myself and find joy and fulfillment in it.
(15:34):
I realize I may have tipped my hand, but I want to say self-publishing isn’t right for everyone. Just like traditional publishing isn’t right for everyone. Which is why I’m sharing my experience with you. I also realize I could have had a lot more money and reach for my show if I’d published through a network. There are definitely pros and cons to either side, but if it comes down to whether or not your work will ever see the light of day, I would encourage you to do what you can to make it happen. I would encourage you to self-publish.
(16:13):
Like I said, I’ve been in some talks with some publishers about books and novels and such, and it all seems so exhausting. It all seems like I have to wait at various stages in the process for permission from various levels and various people. And I’m really impatient. I want to write my stuff and publish it and move on and write more stuff and publish it. Now, I say this because I have realized throughout this process that what is important to me as a creator is making stuff. I don’t care if a lot of people don’t read or listen to it. I don’t care whether it is vetted or validated by professionals. Again, I realize that this is a very egocentric way of thinking, but I’ve realized what matters to me. I like to write, I like to publish my stuff, and I like to keep going. I don’t have time to query agents. I don’t have the energy to beg someone to produce my work, because — I’m not saying that that’s what traditional publishing is; I feel like in my situation, it would feel like begging. I just don’t have time for that. I don’t have the energy for that. I don’t have the energy to convince someone else that my work is worth something when I can just publish it and let the work speak for itself.
(17:41):
Now, the other side of this is, if you actually want to make a living, if you want to be an “author with a capital A”, if you want to be traditionally published, if that is your dream and you want to stick with it, then yeah, there are a ton of benefits to being traditionally published. However — and I’m going to say this in hopes that you take it with a very large grain of salt; I’m not in the publishing industry. I only know what I have seen from the outside. I’m not on BookTok. I’m not employed by a publisher. I am a weird little independent creator making weird little independent things.
(18:23):
I was listening recently to, I want to say it was episode three of The Talking Scared Podcast, which is a podcast that interviews horror writers, because I’m really into horror right now. This is my horror phase. And Neil McRobert, the host of Talking Scared, did a fantastic interview with Sylvia Moreno Garcia, who wrote Mexican Gothic and a number of other works, about what’s going on in the publishing industry. And I would definitely encourage you to listen to that episode. I’ll try to remember, if my memory works, to put a link to it in the description for today’s episode.
(19:00):
But in it, they talk about so many things, including the, quote, “death of the mid-list author” — the idea of that being publishers want to be guaranteed a big hit. They want a debut author who they can blow up into the scene and see a lot of success from, or they want somebody who they know will deliver — along with delivering the work, also deliver them a huge profit.
(19:28):
The publishing business is a business, and I think that a lot of what is going on there right now is similar to what we’re seeing with movies. This is not something I’ve researched; this is just me talking off the top of my head, so please do not quote this or cite it as a source. But just from what I’ve seen personally with all of the reboots and sequels, Hollywood is scared right now of having something that will not guarantee money and profit. They don’t want to take a chance. They don’t want to invest in something that’s a little too weird for the mainstream. That’s why we’re seeing so many Ghostbuster sequels that nobody asked for. That’s why we’re seeing Gladiator 2, which nobody asked for. That’s why we’re seeing so many brand names like Barbie and Transformers. Studios don’t want to risk not making tons of money.
(20:23):
And — again, I don’t have any data to back this up, just what I’ve seen — it would appear to me that book publishing is going the same way. Now, this is not a guarantee. This is not a blanket statement that all traditional publishers are bad, that movie studios are bad, anything like that. This is not a moral judgment. This is just something I have observed. And I’m someone who cares about seeing originality in art, and I care about seeing creators do something new that isn’t necessarily guaranteed to succeed, and, more importantly, that isn’t necessarily guaranteed to make a CEO a ton of money. I’m not creating art, I’m not writing to line someone else’s pockets. I’m writing because it brings me joy and fulfillment to write. So I skip over the whole publishing thing. I write, I self-publish, I market it the best I can, and I keep making stuff.
(21:25):
… I like that I started this episode like, “Oh, both traditional and self-publishing are very valid,” and now I’m like, “Nope.” It’s not that one is bad and one is good. It’s just that, somewhere along the way, I became very disillusioned. And while I don’t ever want to be seen as cynical, I want to be honest about what’s going on and why. When a publisher takes on your work, they’re not saying, “Hmm, is this going to be the next work of literary genius? Is this a really good story that people will love?” No. They’re saying, “Will this make me money?” Publishing is a business, not a charity, and it’s a cutthroat business at that.
(22:11):
Now, one other thing that I’ve heard from some traditionally published authors that I know personally — so again, this is not all traditional authors, and anyone who has had a different or better experience, please do let me know. I am not here to give just one side of the story. This is the side that I know and I would love to hear and respond to anyone else who has seen something different happening in the space.
(22:38):
But I know that initially, and when I say initially, I mean back in the day, so back in the ’80s and ’90s, when you signed a book deal, you were getting a lot of things along with that book deal. So you were getting not only the advance to write your book and the notion that it would be published and it would see the light of day; you were also getting marketing help when a traditional publisher published your book. That was how you became known.
(23:10):
Nowadays — and I know I sound like a stodgy old person saying this, but maybe I should just embrace it — nowadays, I feel like it’s almost the other way around. I feel like you have to build a successful brand on social media first before you can get published. And once you do get published, I think there is a burden on a lot of traditionally published authors to market their own work.
(23:36):
Again, please do correct me if I am wrong, if I am missing the mark. Again, this is all just things that I’ve heard from friends who have been through traditional publishing.
(23:48):
So is self-publishing giving up? Is self-publishing lazy? No. There is a ton of work that you’ll need to do regardless of whether you’re traditionally or self-published, but that decision of how to publish your work or how to get your work published depends on a lot of factors, and it depends on understanding what matters to you as a writer. And again, there is no objectively correct answer. Different methods work for different people, and I’m not here to tell you that one is right or wrong for you. But I do encourage you to talk to other writers and get a beat on what’s going on in both self-publishing and traditional publishing, and take what I’ve said today with a very large grain of salt, because I am clearly very biased.
(24:42):
Edward, whatever you end up choosing, let us know how it goes. I am very curious to see how your journey goes and where it takes you. For anyone else who would like to chime in with their story, I would be very interested in hearing about your experience in self-publishing and traditional publishing, and your thoughts on where both industries are going. You can scroll to the bottom of the show notes for this episode — again, this is episode 162 — and let me know in the comments: what do you think? You can get to that place either by following the link in the show notes for this episode or by going out to sarah werner dot com — hat’s S-A-R-A-H-W-E-R-N-E-R dot com, and looking for episode 162. I also know that earlier I mentioned a Write Now podcast Discord; I will also put a link to that in the show notes for today’s episode. It’s free, though I do have a special private channel for Patreon members.
(25:43):
And hey, speaking of Patreon members, if you would like to donate to this show — again, because I don’t charge for it and I don’t have ads — if you would like to contribute a dollar per episode, $2 per episode, what have you, to the Write Now podcast, you can do that via Patreon. There will be a link to support the show financially in the show notes for today’s episode, which is going to be very apparently link-heavy, but we’ll see. You can also go out to patreon dot com and look for the Write Now podcast or Sarah Rhea Werner, which I think it might be under… I should know these things.
(26:18):
Special thanks go out to patrons Laurie, Regina Calabrese, Amber Fratesi, Charmaine Ferreira, Kim, Mike Tefft, Poppy Brown, Summer, Tiffany Joyner, and Whitney MacGruder. Thank you all so much for your generous contributions to the show.
(26:36):
If you are not incredibly financially solvent right now, I understand! One of the best things you can do that doesn’t cost any money is just by telling a friend, family member, aspiring writer, et cetera — telling someone else about the Write Now Podcast. If they don’t listen to podcasts, show them how to download one and listen to it. Show them how to subscribe to Write Now with Sarah Werner — and that would be also a very beautiful thing, and I would appreciate it very much.
(27:05):
And with that, this has been episode 162 of the Write Now Podcast, the podcast that helps all writers — aspiring, professional, and otherwise — to find the time, energy, and courage you need to pursue your passion and write. I’m Sarah Werner, and I believe that indie creators are the future.