Honoring the Dreamer with Marguerite Croft- WNP 127

Sarah Rhea Werner:

This is the Write Now Podcast with Sarah Werner, Episode 127, Honoring the Dreamer with Marguerite Croft.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Welcome back again this week friends. I am so glad you’re here. I am even more glad that I have with me just such a wonderful and beautiful person who I am so excited to talk about. Today I have with me on the show Marguerite Croft, who is a writer and also audio dramatist. Marguerite is just absolutely one of those people who whenever I talk to Marguerite I just feel centered and I feel just wonderful, and I’m hoping to bring some of that to you today. So Marguerite, welcome. Welcome to the show.

Marguerite Croft:

Thank you, Sarah. I’m so touched. I’m going to listen to that whenever I feel down.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I hope you do. Good. It’s so wonderful to have you here. I would love if you could tell us a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your journey as a writer.

Marguerite Croft:

Yes, I’d be happy to. Okay. So first of all, this is a personal and cultural practice that’s important to me that folks might run into if they spent time with indigenous folks. So I’m a first generation descendant of the White Earth Nation, Minnesota Chippewa Tribe, which means that my mom and my ancestors all the back are enrolled. And I do not have full enrollment status for complicated reasons. But I wanted to include my tribal affiliation.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Thank you.

Marguerite Croft:

So, yeah. So I’m a writer. I work on Point Mystic. I started doing writing there. I’ve done story editing and developing and script editing and stuff with Christopher Reynaga since episode two. I also write fiction. I haven’t had anything out in a really long time, because I’ve been focusing on learning how to write novels. But once upon a time I published some short stories and things. I’m graduate of Clarion West Writers Workshop out of Seattle, which is one of the highlights of my life. It was an amazing experience. And I love primarily writing what would be considered speculative fiction or a fabulous fiction. I have been passionate about writing for what’s referred to as young adults or people who read middle grade for my whole writing career. So I’m really working on learning how to do that. And it’s brought me here and I’m super excited that you asked me to talk about writing. It’s one of my favorite things to talk about.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Well, it’s one Of my favorite things to talk about. So we have that in common. Gosh, I’m so grateful and so delighted that you’re here with us today. I have so many questions I would like to ask you, but I guess first and foremost, what brought you into working on Point Mystic? What brought you into audio drama?

Marguerite Croft:

Okay, well, so I grew up in a super tiny, small rural town in Idaho. And we didn’t have a lot of media entertainment at the time, but we did have radio and we had a local radio station that would play old radio dramas every Monday night. And Christmas and Halloween, they had hours of old radio dramas that met the theme of the holiday. And those were some of my most favorite things. And so when I was young, I tried to make my own radio dramas and loved it and passionate about NPR and This American Life. And when I met Christopher, it was something that we had in common, this passion for radio and this little fantasy about, oh, maybe someday being able to do something like that.

Marguerite Croft:

And he started Point Mystic as a family project, a fun thing to do. And that was it. That was it. It was like, all right, we’re going to do this fun thing. And then it ended up being something that brought us into the podcasting community, which like what a glorious gift.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes, the same. Gosh! Thank you for sharing that. I talked to a lot of writers who co-write things and never really feel like the project is maybe fully theirs or they don’t get the full recognition that they deserve on a project. And I’m curious talking about writing this first novel or learning how to write a novel, is that the first project that’s mainly for you?

Marguerite Croft:

My prose stuff that I’ve done has largely always been for me. So it’s actually like the podcast with the exception of a short story that Christopher and I wrote together. This is the first time I’ve collaborated with anybody on writing anything.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh, got you.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

How has that experience been then?

Marguerite Croft:

Generally, it’s been really good, but it’s also been a challenge figuring out how to do it, particularly, since he’s got all this stuff in his head and it hasn’t all been downloaded into mine. And I know that he has senses of where it’s going and he’s also holding it loosely, because sometimes things happen. It’s like, “Oh, this is actually better for this story,” but figuring out how to merge the process has been a challenge. He had his system down. I’m like, “My brain works differently, I don’t understand what all these things mean,” because he uses a different structure than typical screenplay or audio drama structure for his scripts and things.

Marguerite Croft:

And so getting me on board to write rather than simply edit and work on developing and supporting him through the brainstorming creation process of a script, actually getting there and writing together on it. It’s like how does this work? How do we come together? And also I want to respect that it’s really been very much his and I didn’t want to step on his toes. So part of our process has been me getting comfortable with also taking some ownership on the page in a way I haven’t before. Yeah.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

What does that look like for you? What does that taking ownership look like? Is it your voice coming through more clearly or is it making more executive decisions or what does that process look like?

Marguerite Croft:

It was largely being willing to make some decisions or say… And I would say to him with a script before, “This isn’t working, this is what needs to happen I think for it to work,” things like that. But for me to actually get on the page and say, “Okay, this isn’t working.” And we’ve talked it through enough that I know what the intention is and I believe I know what this needs. So recently I simply dug in and before I would ask, “Is this okay? What do you think about this? How does this work?” Really asking for a lot of permission.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Permission?

Marguerite Croft:

Right. So it was getting to a point where I knew enough and I understood of the background and where things were headed enough that I could simply go in and say, “Okay, these sections aren’t working. So I’m simply going to rewrite them.” And that’s going to be okay because we’ve archived drafts and things well. So yeah, it was having the knowledge and also giving myself permission that it was okay.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Marguerite Croft:

And I was really proud of myself. I was like, “Yeah, okay, I’m going to fix this. I know how to fix this. I’m going to rewrite it. It’ll be great.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And it is.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah. It worked great and it’s been a wonderful experience, because he’s so welcoming and he’s wanted this, he’s wanted it to be a joint process together. So we share word doc and we can go back and forth. And I’ll rewrite things and make notes about why I made changes I did and then maybe he’ll shift some things around. And so it’s become more organic, but it’s really very recent that, that’s happened. It’s been a process.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. And it feels like it would be. Is there just absolutely anything that you’ve clashed heads on or that you’ve foreseen coming up to like, “Oh, we’re really going to struggle with this,” or has it really been… I think just what I’m getting at is I feel like Christopher would be a very good person to co-create with.

Marguerite Croft:

Absolutely. He’s very kind and very generous and very supportive. And he’s always been so incredibly supportive of my writing in a way that very few people in my life have been so supportive and so generous and so easygoing. And we also have a very common background. We went to Clarion West together. So we have a common writing language and we’re used to constructively critiquing each other’s work. That was the foundation of our relationship.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh, I love that.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah. I know sometimes it can be a little scary. It’s like, “Oh, I care about this person, what are they going to think about this thing that I wrote?” But it is so naturally part of our relationship that has worked well. And we also have very common tastes. And so I think that helps too.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love that. Tell me a little bit about your tastes and what you prefer to write.

Marguerite Croft:

So personally, what tends to come out is, some might call it magical realism, like American magical realism, some might call it fabulous, but it tends to deal with realistic world and presumably magical or fabulous things happen. So it’s playing with the edges of reality. It’s not uncommon for me to write a story that is fairly domestic. And then there is this presumably magical element that shows up. And there’s a part of my brain like realistically, I’m like, “Yeah, this is fantasy, this is fantastical.” And there’s also a part of my brain that’s like, “No, this is how reality works.” And I think it’s my heritage. It’s living in this world and being raised by women who believed, and my dad’s side of the family too had beliefs to their…

Marguerite Croft:

From my dad’s side, I’m Mormon pioneer stock. So ancestors that push their handcarts across the plane to get to Salt Lake City situation and they have lots of what would be considered a real stories on that side and ways of looking at the world. But definitely my mom and my grandma too where things that reality says isn’t real are actually real, house of spirits. In other classic magical realistic book is like this is how it works. And I use it as a touch point for what I write, but I also want to be really cautious, because people know what the term means. I’m using it here, because I’m assuming people know what that means, but also it originated in Germany and then went to south American. It has this south American origin that I think is important. It’s important for me to recognize that. And it’s also very political.

Marguerite Croft:

And so a lot of my work deals with very similar things, but simply from an American context. So I do write things and there is this political element considering how the indigenous people of North America were colonized and what’s happened with that. It’s similar, but I’m not quite sure what to call it if I don’t want to call it magical realism. Does that make any sense?

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That makes perfect sense. Yeah.

Marguerite Croft:

I feel like I’m saying a lot of things to say something that’s probably very simple.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

No, I really, really appreciate that nuanced response. I think that’s really lovely and it’s really honest. I also had never heard the term fabulous before. That was a new one for me as well. Is that similar to magical realism or very different or?

Marguerite Croft:

My understanding of it, it is that it is similar, but it often includes things that have a more mythic origin.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Okay, cool.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah. I believe Peter Straub edited it. There’s this great book I love from the mid 2000s called The New Wave Fabulous and it’s got a bunch of great fun stories in it. It was part of, I believe, the conjunctions series. I read that book and I was like, “Oh yeah, okay, this makes sense to me, this is how it works.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love that. I love this really fluid version of reality and realism and understanding that what’s real isn’t real for everyone and it can be very subjective and it can be very just relative.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah, and very personal.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes, and very, very personal. I love that. I’m so interested in what is magic? What is real? Is there anything in particular within that, that you find yourself drawn to exploring?

Marguerite Croft:

So one thing that shows up a lot in my work, and when I say that, what I mean is these are the images and the concepts that rise from that dreamer piece of me that’s down deep inside, like my subconscious and whatever. These are the things that show up when I start dreaming about what I’m going to write, are magical things like mermaids, which my tribe has mermaid stories traditionally, Sasquatch or Bigfoot, we call them something else like the big hairy primate spirits or magical creatures or real events, things that would be considered fantasy events. I’m trying to figure out how to get more specific for you.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

No, this is anything that you’re happy and willing to talk about. This is all perfect and lovely.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah. But like things like that show up. And it’s the story that got me into Clarion West was about these teenage girls. And one of them is dealing with the death of her boyfriend and she ends up having a relationship with a bear who’s also mourning the bears partner. And it was like, well, of course, this makes sense, because of the nature of the story, having this bear there made sense in it. And I realized in the Western tradition, it has this animal bridegroom origin. I can see that there, which is possible. And there’s probably other parts of my psyche from where it came from, but it was about them coming together and healing and building this new relationship.

Marguerite Croft:

And she has a sister who’s the narrator of the story who has the opportunity seeing her sister being happy in this interesting relationship, in this interesting new reality, new world situation. And she decides that’s not what she wants. She wants her typical suburban teenage life with Prom and Dairy Queen and those things. She doesn’t want the magic, but she doesn’t want the bear, but that was what her sister needed and that’s what her sister wanted. And delving into the relationships with two people who love each other really much with the sisters and how one wants one thing to make the life she wants and how does it make sense to the other one? And she struggles with that, but realizes, “Well, this is what my sister wants and she’s happy and I can still have my relationship with her, but it’s different now.” And it takes effort, because she’s in a different place than we were before.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love that. So when you write a story like that, do you thumbtack a moral onto it like, “Hey, this is a lesson I want you to take away,” or do you prefer to let the story simply exist?

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah, I don’t tend to think about themes or lessons or anything like that, but it can also become a parent’s like, “Oh, I see what the story is trying to say.” And so deep down, I imagine that part of me is trying to say something here. I can see the connection, because I think our brains are super smart, especially deep down in there. But that’s not my intention going in.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I appreciate that. One of the things that you said earlier in this interview that I really liked is, you talked about your writing as what tends to come out as though it’s a runaway horse or it is this thing that maybe you’re not fully in control of. And I would love to ask a little bit more about where this writing comes from just for you as a person?

Marguerite Croft:

Okay. So here’s my theory about how this works. I believe that for a variety of reasons, I’ve got a bunch of stuff down in my subconscious. I think about it as a compost pile. And it includes all my life experiences and the people I’ve known and the things they’ve said and the things that have happened to me and the things I’ve read and TV I’ve watched and the radio dramas, everything is down in there in this compost pile. And my subconscious has worked with it and played with it over time. And if I listen to myself and I’m open and accepting and willing that those things will come up in images or ideas, especially for me images, and that if I hold it gently and don’t try to control it, which is easier said than done, because I want to be smart and say, “This is how it should work, and this is how the structure should work,” and all those sorts of things, that doesn’t work and that’s not having a good relationship with my subconscious, I suppose.

Marguerite Croft:

But if I’m gentle with it and I ask questions and I’m curious, and I say, “Well, what if this? And if what if that, well, what if the opposite were true? Or why is that? That answers will come and maybe they don’t come exactly what I want them to come, because it would be nice to be a happy little writing factory where I can create widgets it’s on demand and that’s not how my brain works. But if I do that, that these things will come. If I’m open and gentle and kind and accepting and say, “Yes, more of that, please, more of that, please,” and I’m supportive and encouraging, the things come up and the ideas come up, which is one part of your question. I have something that goes a little further if you’re interested.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes, please.

Marguerite Croft:

All right.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Please, please, I am here. I’m here for everything you have to say.

Marguerite Croft:

Thank you. I appreciate that. We might’ve actually talked about this before. Are you familiar with Graham Joyce? He was a fantasy, I think also horror writer.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Let’s assume that I am not and none of my listeners are either.

Marguerite Croft:

Okay, good deal. He passed away a handful of years ago, so he’s not going to be on the front of people’s consciousness, awareness right now, probably. He wrote this lovely book called Facts of Life and he wrote Smoking Poppy and he wrote Indigo and The Tooth Fairy and Requiem, a bunch of books. And he was from England. And I met him at World Fantasy Convention in San Jose, I think, it was Halloween 2009. And he was hanging out with Peter Straub and one of the lovely things about Christopher is if he sees people hanging out and he wants to talk to them, he’ll just go up and talk to them. And I’m like, “That’s Graham Joyce and Peter Straub, they’re having a conversation. I don’t want to interrupt them.” And he’s like, “Oh, that’s Graham Joyce and Peter Straub, I want to say hello.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love that. We all need someone like that in our lives.

Marguerite Croft:

Yes. He’s an introvert, but I consider him my extrovert intermediary. He’s my social lubricant to talk to people, because I’m like, “Oh, why would they want to talk to me?” Which is ridiculous, that’s never been my experience that people didn’t want to talk to me, they’re so kind, but these things that we tell ourselves. So we go up to Peter Straub and Graham Joyce and Peter Straub, who is certainly probably better known for sure, he’s one of the [crosstalk 00:20:43] granddaddy’s kind of thing, right? And he’s chatting with Graham Joyce and Graham Joyce had just taught an afternoon workshop in Seattle for an organization affiliated with Clarion West. So I said, “Oh, well, what did you teach, because I am happy to grant wisdom I didn’t get when I went through.”

Marguerite Croft:

And he said, “Well, I taught about when we write, we have a dreamer and a writer and an editor.” There’s three different roles or identities that are involved in the writing process and how they each have to do their own job. And we got to keep the other ones out of the room when each are doing their job and we need to give them all their own time and we tend to combine them or remove one. And the one that tends to get removed the most is the dreamer. So when the dreamer who’s dealing with the daydreaming and the fantasizing and the what if and playing, like for myself with my compost pile with my subconscious.

Marguerite Croft:

If the dreamer doesn’t get to do their job, the story is really missing out. And then when the dreamer is done with their work, with their draft, with their brainstorming, then the writer needs to come in and create the shape and make the story make sense and connect things. And when they’re done, then the editor gets to come in, and the editor always wants to come in.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

My editor is very nosy.

Marguerite Croft:

Very nosy, very proactive.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes. That’s a nicer, that’s a kinder way of putting it, proactive. Yeah.

Marguerite Croft:

Always really proactive. Yeah, when the dreamer and the writer are done, then the editor can come in and really clean things up. But he’s like, “Yeah, if we forget one, it’s a mess.” And he’s like, “You can’t forget to include the dreamer.” And I noticed, I was like, oh my gosh! After I came out of Clarion West, I was silencing the dreamer part of myself a lot and expecting the writer and the editor to know how to do the dreamers job and they don’t like. They super don’t know how to do that job in the way that the dreamer does. So I’ve been mindful about being kind to that part of myself so that they can do their job, because they give so much.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Wow. The first time that you told me about this, it completely changed how I write and create. And I want you to know that I have a sticky note over here that says, “Dreamer, writer, editor.” Can you tell us a little bit more about what it looks like for you to nurture that dreaming part? Because I know for me, whenever I’m sitting here having ideas, my editor is like, “Hey, that’s a good idea, that’s a bad idea.” And it’s very judging and it’s very like, “Hey, let me just sweep that up for you.” How do you give the dreamer space and how do you honor that part of yourself as a writer?

Marguerite Croft:

Well, one thing I do is I intentionally take that part of myself seriously. In the self talk and the language that I use, I spend a lot of time writing by hand. And so images or things will come up. And so I allow it and I say, “Yeah, let me play with that and see if it’s anything,” and maybe it’s not, but for this project, perhaps. But I want to make it safe for myself to bring those ideas. And so I treat myself, that dreamer part of me, like I would want someone else to treat me if I was collaborating with somebody and I was bringing ideas. So I’m kind and I’m considerate. I work to be kind and I work to be considerate and open and write the ideas down and play with them and say, “Yes, more of that.”

Marguerite Croft:

And sometimes I’ll say, “Oh, you know what? That’s really interesting and maybe not that right now. Thank you, but not right now, what else do you have?” And maybe direct it like, “Do you have anything about pine trees or something?” Whatever I need, right? And I give myself like maybe something will come up right away and sometimes I’ve learned if I take a little nap or if I sleep on it or I give it a couple of days or I go for a walk, I will give myself what I’m looking for.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh gosh!

Marguerite Croft:

Again, it’s not necessarily on my timeline, because I would like it right now. Let’s just get it done and make the writing widgets. But if I am kind and gentle with myself, it shows up and it’s when I am hard on myself, that’s a stupid idea, that’s ridiculous, that makes no sense, that’s not what I’m writing about. When I see things like that, it shuts that part of myself down, which makes total sense, like I was shut down if somebody talked to me that way. Obviously I am, this is all part of me. I’m talking about myself like I’m different entities, but yeah. Be kind, if I’m kind with myself, I’ll show up for myself. And so it’s treating myself with love and consideration and respect, and those pieces of me will do the work, do what I ask. Yeah. And I write them down and I think that, that’s another clue that I’m taking it seriously. And it also helps me play with it or play with the ideas or record them, but it’s also like yeah, I’m writing this down. I take it seriously.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

It’s just such a beautiful and refreshing difference from something like I recently re-read Do the Work and The War of Art and a couple other books that are very aggressive and very demanding. And, hey, sit down and get your butt in that seat and get your words out and there’s no other way to really do this. And this really gentle and kind and questioning aspect of things really doesn’t ever make it through in a lot of those like how to write books, it seems very directed and aggressive and like you’re pulling thread out of somewhere and it’s very taut and you have to keep pulling. Whereas this gives a little bit of the thread back, and now I’m getting into a weird metaphor that I don’t know where it’s going. But there’s such an element of grace and also this very, almost paradoxical way of being intentional about trusting yourself, but letting yourself trust yourself. You’re not 100% in control of that and that’s really fascinating to me.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah. I’ve learned that my top brain, this conscious part of my brain that wants to be smart and control everything, so everything’s okay and safe and works the way that it should work, that, that doesn’t work. It can’t control everything, dislike it can’t control the things in my life. It hasn’t worked for me. To your point about writing books and like be a professional, get in the chair, absolutely, I have my writing time, this is when I’m working, but I also recognize that I need to figure out what that means for me individually and it changes day to day.

Marguerite Croft:

I’ve had periods in my life where I had friends who were also professional writers and much, much further along in their careers than I was. And they’d be like, “All right, we’re going to write together and this is what it is. And we’re getting in the chair and we are professionals and this is a business.” And I’m like, “Yeah, absolutely, it is.” But if I would start playing with ideas or working with ideas or not working in the way they thought was working, because I’m not sitting at my laptop making new words, but I’m working with things in other ways. It was like, “You’re not working, you need to get back on task.”

Marguerite Croft:

And I was like, okay, they’re further along, they know. Okay, I’m appreciating their feedback. I’m going to try to make this work. And it didn’t. It really shut me down. And so I’ve learned this is when I show up for my writing and having that self discipline, but also saying, “Okay, today, it’s not coming at my desk, it’s not working at my desk.” It’s okay to go outside or it’s okay to take a recorder and walk and talk through it. And it’s okay to sit elsewhere, in work elsewhere. What I’m trying to say is that I’ve learned it’s okay to be flexible for me as long as I’m still showing up and doing the work, if that makes sense.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That makes perfect sense. Our audience can’t see us, but this whole time I have been nodding so hard. I’m going to get a headache like yes, absolutely everything that you’ve said. And there’s so much there with what it means to create a process that works for you and to nurture and honor a system that works for you and making sure that you make space for that dreaming part that is so easily forgotten and I think overlooked by so many people and discarded, because it’s not immediately productive. It’s not in the sense of churning out words and getting your word count for the day. And I’m curious in deviating from what other people say that you should be doing, did you feel like as with other things you needed permission to do that or did you have to give the permission to yourself to do that? Or what did that look like for you?

Marguerite Croft:

There was this point where I realized I have a tendency to walk into situations with serious glass empty beginner’s mind, which can be really useful and it can also be a problem. There’s a balance point I’m still working on, but I realized that I needed to change my environment and how I was working to suit me as an individual rather than make me change and adjust to suit a work environment or how a writer supposed to work. And once I realized I’d done that, it was like, “Oh, okay, well that’s what I need to do is make it suit me.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Did you notice a change in your creativity or change in your writing when you did that?

Marguerite Croft:

Absolutely, overnight it was mind blowing. It was like, “This is what we’re doing, this is the thing that feels good for me and we’re going to set it up this way.” And I asked for support from my family, “This is what I need to do to make space and make it work for me.” And they supported me and yeah, overnight, like overnight change.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love it. I want to encourage those of you who are listening to really, really take this to heart. I’m still working on taking it heart myself, but I know how important that is. Thank you for sharing all of this.

Marguerite Croft:

My pressure.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I want to ask about your experience with Clarion West. I feel like that was a huge milestone or I don’t know how you would prefer to describe it, but I feel like it was a big event and a big moment for you. Can you tell us a little bit about what that experience meant to you and what you took away from it?

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah. It was life changing for me, and everybody has their own experiences, of course. And I know that it wouldn’t necessarily work or hasn’t worked for everybody. I want to be clear about that, because sometimes there’s been this, “Oh, the Clarions or they are the thing.” And sometimes people haven’t had a great experience for them, for whatever reason, it didn’t work for them or it’s not an environment that would work for everybody. And I don’t want to set it up as the end-all be-all and be like this evangelist where I know that it is not like this one true way situation.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I appreciate that.

Marguerite Croft:

So I wanted to say that.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Thank you.

Marguerite Croft:

But it changed my life. I’m from small town, Idaho, and I’m female and my dad’s white, my mom’s native American, and I’m growing up in this part of the world where there’s a lot of judgment about that. And headed a lot of expectations for who I should be. My parents were both super intelligent and I was recently diagnosed with ADHD and I didn’t know growing up. And so teachers were often disappointed in me. It’s like, “Your parents are so smart, what happened to you?” Kind of thing.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh my gosh! I’m sorry.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah, it was really hard. And my parents were like, “What’s wrong with her? Some things she’s not, but we don’t know, but she seems like she’s a smart kid. Maybe if she worked harder, maybe if she watched this TV.” I wasn’t watching TV. Like what’s going on with their kid, so she’s not showing up in the way we’re expecting her to. And I would run into that in college as well. People would be disappointed in me, because they didn’t function the way they thought I should function. And I knew it was an issue and I knew that I didn’t, and I didn’t know why. And I think it was a combination of, I grew up in a period where if one was not a white cis near typical male is one smart, is one capable. What really can we expect from somebody? And I ran into that in college as well. And so I had always felt like I’m working really hard. I see I’m typically working harder than everybody else and I don’t get anywhere. And what value do I have for the world?

 

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh my gosh!Marguerite Croft:

But one thing I could do is generally, I’d always been a pretty good writer and I loved doing it. And my teachers would say, “Well, she wants to do these other things, but she should just be a writer.” And it was like, “Well, that would be fine, I could do that, but nobody makes money doing that. That’s not a profession.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And also weirdly backhanded validated.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah, it was weird. I wanted to go into anthropology and things like that and it was like, “Well, you should stick with the arts. You’re an artsy person.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh my God.

Marguerite Croft:

“You’re talking about social sciences and you have to have some sciences and those things are hard, you should just do the arts,” which is funny.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

How do you feel about that now, looking back?

Marguerite Croft:

Well, first of all, they were wrong. I have an anthropology degree in biological anthropology.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Amazing.

Marguerite Croft:

And I did biomedical anthropology. And yeah, A, so I was able to do it, and B, writing is hard work. It is a skill. It is a serious skill. It was bananas. It was mind blowing. And also I’m like, “Well, I get it, I also get it, like culturally it.” The anthropologist, culturally, it makes sense.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes, without friends. Yeah, but [crosstalk 00:35:45].

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah, the value system.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah, it really did. But I also love doing it and I loved reading and all the sorts of things that’s associated with writing. And also incidentally anthropology is a really great major for someone who wants to be a writer-

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh I bet.

Marguerite Croft:

…ton. In graduate school, I was writing 100 pages a week. Great discipline for people who want to be writers, particular branches of anthropology. So it was good training. And I decided to leave that. I was really uncomfortable with a lot of things that was going on. In anthropology, I had a lot of ethics and morals around how people are treated and how communities are worked with and I wasn’t seeing that happening. People were using minorities to get ahead power, money, right? Like, “This will get me grants, this will get me tenure.” And I was really struggling with that. And I didn’t see that changing anytime soon. So I decided to take a break and have kids. I wanted to have kids. And my brain wanted to do things. So I started writing. I had written off and on through school, but I started writing again and really focusing on it.

Marguerite Croft:

So I’m a housewife in Idaho who also had, had an experience of never really measuring up in life. So I applied to Clarion West and the instructors are Paul Park, who I don’t think is as well known as a lot of people, and it’s unfortunate, because I think he’s a great writer, and Mary Rosenblum who’s passed away now, but she was a great writer and a really smart, savvy, incredible woman, Connie Willis, who won so many awards and is amazing, and Cory Doctorow, who’s also wonderful, and Sheree R. Thomas, who’s a fantastic writer and now she’s editing fantasy and science fiction, and Chuck Palahniuk, who was amazing, so amazing, this wonderful lineup of people.

Marguerite Croft:

And it was a point in my life where it was like, “Okay, this is a huge sacrifice and a huge privilege to even be able to do it, but I can go to Seattle for six weeks.” So I applied. And it was a really super competitive year. And I got in. Like how did this happen? It was some magical fantasy that had come true. Wow, maybe I’m good at something, really good at something. Maybe outside of being a human being in there for having value, maybe I’m actually capable of doing something well. Maybe I have promise, because that hadn’t been the case before. If somebody like say my professors in anthropology, maybe if they’d seen potential at some point, they were like, “Yeah, you have potential,” but also they wanted, I guess, to put their eggs in other baskets.

Marguerite Croft:

And so it was really hard. It was really painful. And it was like, “Wow.” It felt like I was seen and validated in a way that I’d never been before in my life. And that was simply getting accepted. And I went and hit the most amazing classmates, smart, amazing writers, really sharp and insightful and cool and fun. And I had to live with them in a sorority house for six weeks.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That’d be really fun.

Marguerite Croft:

It was like Disneyland every day. And we got to work with these amazing writers and they were all really supportive and validating. We had one-on-ones with all the visiting writers and there was this point where Connie Willis was like, “Yeah, you can do this, you can have a career doing it. Now, you’re not going to make the best cup cakes for the big sale and you’re not going to have the cleanest house and people are going to be upset that you’re not always there for them the way they want you to be, but you can do this.” And that’s what I kept hearing over and over is you can do this.

Marguerite Croft:

People I respect and admire and value are telling me that something I love doing that I never considered is something I would ever do other than like sometimes for fun when I had time like, “Oh, it’s Saturday, maybe I’ll write a story,” that I might be able to create something of value that had quality. It opened up my world in terms of my potential, because I believed I was capable of doing things, but that was not something I attended to hear in my life.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I’m so glad you heard it and that so many people said, “Yeah, you can do this,” because you can and you are doing it and you’re amazing.

Marguerite Croft:

Thank you, Sarah. Thank you.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Marguerite Croft:

I really wonder about how many people slip through the cracks who are capable of so many things and they slipped through the cracks.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Because we’re all searching for that validation. And I think it’s very rare that we get it or that we get it when we need it or in the way that we need it or from the people from whom we need it. So I’m very grateful, very grateful that you got that.

Marguerite Croft:

Me too. It wasn’t why I went, I wanted to learn how to plot from Connie Willis, that’s why I went.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I appreciate that.

Marguerite Croft:

And I wanted to make community and meet other people who are writers and that kind of thing. And I know that some people do go for validation and that can be a painful thing when it doesn’t come the way that the people need, but I did feel that. I did experience that and I learned so much about writing and about me as a writer and the writing I was doing. I came out understanding it in a way that I hadn’t before.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

In addition to this enormous mindset shift of validation and understanding that like, “Oh, I can do this,” what else did you take away? What else shifted or changed for you during this experience?

Marguerite Croft:

I realized what I was capable of in a way I hadn’t before and I learned about things that light me up in ways that other things don’t, where my passion lies. And I got to have more of a sense of who I am. I think that when one steps outside of normal every day to day life and get some time away, there’s that opportunity to see things differently. And I got time away from the people who are around me and it’s not that I didn’t have and still don’t, lovely friends. I’m still friends with a lot of people I knew from that time and had other people in my life that weren’t wonderful and lovely, but also I was living in circumstances in a culture where there were expectations from me for who I should be and what my value is, and it’s be a good wife, raise your kids, have the perfect house. These are all the things you’re supposed to do to be a valuable, productive member of society.

Marguerite Croft:

And I realized some people in my life were not always kind to me, they did try to hold me down. And I was able to see that and realize, “Oh wow, when they see these things to me it hurts and there’s a reason why it hurts and it’s not okay.” So I was able to look at my writing in a new way and understand myself as a writer in a new way and what does it mean for me to be a human living where I’m living like, am I living the life I want to live? Am I surrounding myself with the sorts of people I want in my life? Am I surrounded by the community I need? How do I want to be a better mother? How do I want to be a better citizen of the world? All these big questions, what do I want for myself? And how do I give myself those things?

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That’s so heavy. That’s so much, but it’s so important.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh my gosh!

Marguerite Croft:

And it goes into the writing, right?

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Marguerite Croft:

It totally feeds into the writing, like if I’m happy, if I can make myself happy, give me myself the things that make me happy to the best of my ability, because there’s no 100%, right?

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes.

Marguerite Croft:

But what can I do to give myself the life I want with as much happiness and joy as possible so that I am living a good life and also so that I can write and do the work that I want to do, because that brings me joy, that’s part of the joy. And really for me, the biggest question is, “Ultimately, how does this also make me a better mother for my children?”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Did your children notice a difference?

Marguerite Croft:

They were really young.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Okay.

Marguerite Croft:

So I don’t know that they did. They were super young. But I did notice after I came back that in talking with my older son, I noticed he was picking up language about expectations for people and putting people down and sorts of things I had heard other people say sometimes about me. And he’s six years old and he’s parroting back what he’s hearing around him in the community. It’s like, “Oh, I see that now. It’s really loud now. I’ve been away from it and so what can I do as a mother to teach him other ways and to live my life so that, that’s the model that he has, so that while he’s making his own compost pile, it’s different ways of living are seated within him.” Like living a good life and living the life he wants and not settling for things that makes him unhappy and working to achieve his goals and to give himself what he wants.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That ripple effect is truly incredible, the fact that you have that experience and then by proxy, you brought that experience into your home and into your family. Earlier in this discussion, we talked about how there wasn’t always open support for you and for what you wanted to do. Do you still deal with that today? And what did you eventually do with some of those relationships that weren’t supportive or were maybe even toxic?

Marguerite Croft:

So generally right now, my life is really good. I am surrounded by supportive people and that’s by design, it’s intentional. And it’s not that all my relationships are perky and perfect and so different and things like that.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Because it’s life.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah, it’s life and humans are imperfect. And that’s, I think, part of our beauty, that makes us interesting, but also working to ensure that I am surrounded by people who are good for me, I can have really great relationships with and who I can support. And distancing myself from people who are more toxic and work to create boundaries. And this took time, this took a lot of work and time and figuring out how to do that for myself so that it was really healthy for me. And it’s not necessarily an easy process, but it was worth it. It was really worth it. I am so happy in my life now.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love to hear that. Well, I would love to talk to you forever basically, but given that we are in a reality that is somewhat constricted by time, I would love to ask you, you’ve already given us such a beautiful breakdown of the dreamer and the writer and the editor, do you have another favorite piece of writing advice that has been particularly impactful for you or that you would like to share? And I say that on top of all of the amazing and incredible things that you’ve already said. So I might be asking unfairly.

Marguerite Croft:

Not at all. Here’s one thing that comes to mind and this is something I know we’ve talked about before, I would really encourage people to do things that they are passionate about that fills them outside of professional aspirations or necessities. So for example, people pay me to write things and it’s great and I love it. And it’s wonderful and it helps keep the lights on and things like that. And I’m excited in working on more of that, this is great. And I love writing and I’m passionate about it. And one thing that I’ve found valuable for me is in a world and a culture where it is so common for us to try to monetize our passions is to have a hobby, have something to engage in that one is passionate about outside of capitalism, outside of the marketplace, outside of trying to make money, simply for the joy.

Marguerite Croft:

And for me, one of the things I’ll do is I will write for myself things that are only for me. That is the intention. And that’s not to say that at some point I might put it together and work on submitting it or working on getting it published and then making money from it, but that’s not the original initial point. It was because I love doing it and it makes me happy to do it and it brings me joy and that’s the whole point initially. For me, I know it’s easy to get depleted and I’ve got to find those ways to fill myself, give myself some energy so that I can do all the other things in life like work.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And taking care of your family and taking care of yourself and all the things.

Marguerite Croft:

Yeah. So I encourage passion projects. Maybe they’ll make some money someday. That would be nice. That’s gravy.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That’s how Girl In Space started. It started as a passion project.

Marguerite Croft:

Really.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And I had no intention of making money or a career out of it. And then I needed to hear that so much. Thank you. That is such good and beautiful advice. And it, I think, will remind everyone who hears it of why we’re doing this and how we need to do this. And I think it goes back to what you were saying early about these things that come out, this creativity that just comes out and how we need to learn to respect ourselves and trust ourselves and allow that to flow. So this is just really come full circle and I’m so excited about that.

Marguerite Croft:

I admire that, like such an amazing interview and how you’re able to pull things around and tie it together.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

You did that. This is all you. Marguerite, every time I speak with you, I just feel like you’re just speaking to my spirit and it’s not to put any pressure on you or anything, but I just want to express how grateful I am for your presence and for you granting us this gift of your insight and your wisdom today during this interview. I am really excited to share this with my audience. Before I let you go, if people are interested in hearing your work or learning more about you, where can we send them? Where can they find you? Where do you want to be found, I guess?

Marguerite Croft:

Where do I want to be found? Well, I’m working on revamping and putting up my website. So very soon I should have something there and that is at margueritecroft.com. I have been known to spend time on Twitter at Marguerite Croft. I’m on Facebook and Instagram, but a lot of folks that I interact with are on Twitter. So that’s mostly where I am right now. And I just had a personal essay published with Apparition Lit and it should be actually available online right now. They’ve been progressively releasing contents from this issue. So I think it was up last week-

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh my gosh!

Marguerite Croft:

…and it’s about taking chances and giving other people a chance and as part of a lesson I learned from my family history.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

If you wouldn’t mind sharing a link to that, I would love to put that and your Twitter handle as well as margueritecroft.com into the show notes for today’s episode so that people can just enjoy your work and support you as a very deserving writer.

Marguerite Croft:

Thank you. I’d be happy to. I will send you all of those things.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes, please.

Marguerite Croft:

And I’ll send Point Mystic links to you.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh, that’s right. And Point Mystic is Marguerite and Christopher have created this amazing audio drama. I love it, I recommend it, every chance I can get, it’s called Point Mystic. I’ll make sure there’s a link to that as well in the show notes. Marguerite is also a very fine voice actor within this show. So you’re going to hear her voice and you’re just going to be so happy about it. I can just tell you that.

Marguerite Croft:

Thank you. Yeah, I love it too.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

It’s so good. Marguerite, thank you so much for being on the show today. I know I’ve said this 100 times, but thank you, thank you, thank you. I’m so excited to share this episode and so grateful again to have you on. So thank you.

Marguerite Croft:

You’re welcome. Thank you so much for having me. You’ve been a highlight of my week for sure.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That makes me happy.

Marguerite Croft:

Probably my month.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

It’s so validating. Thank you.