Sarah:

This is The Write Now podcast with Sarah Werner. Welcome back again this week, friends, I am so excited to be here with you today. And I am also extremely excited to have a very special guest. Today we’re going to be speaking with David S. Dear who is the creator of a Ninth World Journal, which is a podcast, an audio drama that I think a lot of people are sleeping on. So David, welcome to the show. I’m so happy you’re here.

David:

Well, I’m so excited to be here. Thank you so much, Sarah, for asking me to be here.

Sarah:

Well, I just think you have such, in so many ways, you have such a wonderful voice. I could listen to you talk all day. But also your creative work has an incredible voice to it. And so I want to welcome you to the show today. And I would love to just start off if you can give us a little bit of a peek behind the curtain for your creative journey and what this has looked like for you.

David:

I can do that. For Ninth World Journal, I have to admit that I have borrowed and springboarded off of Monte Cook Games’ game. It’s a role playing game, tabletop style role playing game. And their world is so fantastic. And it fires up the Imaginarium so much that I thought, well, this would be fun to use to tell stories to explore entire worlds. So that kind of took me to a Ninth World Journal, using the idea of somebody who randomly teleports because that gives an opportunity to show so many disparate locations throughout the world and how varied and how crazy and chaotic and weird the world is. That’s kind of why I used that template, the idea of random jaunting.

Sarah:

Very, very cool. And what about what you yourself as a creator? What is your story? Where did you come from? Where are you going? Tell us all about you.

David:

Oh, maybe I can find out [inaudible 00:02:20] this conversation.

Sarah:

This will be discerning.

David:

More than a writer, I consider myself a storyteller more than I do a writer. Writer is just one of the various mediums that I like to use to tell stories. I am also a musician. In my early 20s, played in a band. And that’s a form of storytelling.

Sarah:

It is.

David:

As you know being a close to musician. So there’s the storytelling aspect. And there’s kind of a poetic aspect in songwriting. But I’ve written, since I can remember, I’ve written fiction, I’ve written short… I always had a fondness for the short stories. Short stories seem really nice, you can kind of encapsulate a little snapshot of something within this kind of a more limited space than a novel. Never tried my hand at a novel, but…

David:

So the short stories writing has been just since I remember. And that segued into writing audio drama, which I’ve pulled my experience on stage and in theater for that. Because I’d always wanted to venture into playwriting. And this is not quite the same as playwriting, but I think it’s a cousin of it. A close cousin. So I feel like it’s a good foray into kind of finding that way into telling stories in a playwright type format. Where you’re using all dialogue.

David:

I mean, I cheat because I… Ninth World Journal has a lot of narrative aspects to it. But then again, when you… Especially the first seasons, all narrative, but when you get into the second season, then there’s more dialogue, and it becomes more like a play would be written. Without the stage directions. Sound directions, I guess it would be.

Sarah:

Yeah, sound directions and atmosphere directions. So I want to talk a little bit about your background in theater and how that has affected how you write audio dramas today. Can you give us a little bit of background there too?

David:

Yes. Theater, you use a lot of the same rules, but you actually have to eliminate some of the rules because you don’t have things… You have to translate something like sightlines in theater, where they talk about everything you do, you have to make sure you’re projecting your voice to the back of the auditorium. You have to make sure that everybody in the audience can see you at all times. So there are sight lines and you’re not obstructing or upstaging or things like that.

David:

So there’s differences that you have to translate into the audio medium, where you have the visual elements on a stage to tell your story. You don’t get that luxury in audio. So you have to use your words and descriptions to kind of, I would say that the one thing that theater and audio have in common is avoiding heavy subtext. Because then it undermines kind of the story and you’re not giving the listeners or the audience the benefit of the doubt.

Sarah:

Oh, can you extrapolate on that?

David:

Okay. So in theater, you don’t want to try to explain what’s happening on stage so much that the audience doesn’t get to do their work of… They don’t have the joy of being able to ascertain and discover what’s happening. For example, you might have somebody who has got kind of pretty selfish intentions, and they undermine people. So you don’t want to be like the Mr. Snidely twirling the mustache, paint him as this villain. Because then the audience doesn’t get to decide what kind of person they are, what their true motivations are. They’ve just said, oh, they’re the villain, and they’ve boxed him already.

David:

In a similar way, in audio drama, you have to be careful of creating dialogue that explains things in a way that’s unnatural. For people, for example, if you say, “Oh, why are you pointing that gun at me?” That’s not usually your question. When a gun is like staring you in the face usually you’re going to react. So there’s ways that you have to show that the person is pointing a gun at somebody without spelling it out for the listener. And that can be a little bit more tricky, because you can lean on it on stage or in film where you can’t in audio.

Sarah:

How do you find your way around that? Do you just try, oh, maybe this will work? Or maybe this will work? Or how do you find your way… Or how do you navigate that?

David:

What you said, it’s kind of like trial and error. Once you write it, as you know as a writer, you write something and then when you read it back, it’s like, wait a minute, no. I know what I was intending to do, but it’s not working. So it’s that read back and the read aloud and the… Because I’ll often do that, I’ll read aloud the dialogue. And then you can feel if it’s clumsy, or if it’s overstated, or if you’re putting too much subtext under it. That helps a tremendous amount, and kind of not trying to visualize it while you’re reading it. I mean because even though you’re visualizing you already have the picture in your head, but your listener has to build the picture as you’re telling the story.

Sarah:

I love that. I want to go back to… I want to couple that with something that you said a few seconds ago about the audience being engaged and actually not even just being engaged but doing work. The audience putting together puzzle pieces and the audience actively playing a part in the story. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

David:

Okay. In writing for example, in Ninth World Journal. I like the audience to be surprised. But to me, it’s important that if the characters aren’t truly surprised, then the audience won’t be as surprised. Okay, so as far as writing process goes, a lot of writers will create entire backstories and things like that. Or they’ll fill in the… They’ll know what is going on all around them. In the protagonist of a Ninth World Journal he is often lost, and he often has no idea where he is, who he is, and who the people around him are.

David:

If I explore all those things, then it’s harder for me to tell the story from Januae’s point of view, the protagonist, because I know so much and I personally me, I’m afraid that it’s going to bleed into Januae and he won’t have the blinders of the ignorance of his circumstances, if that makes any sense.

Sarah:

It does. It does. And I love this because so often storytellers of all kinds talk about audience engagement, and they talk about it like it’s this mystical un-understandable. That’s not a word, but we’ll go with it.

David:

It is now.

Sarah:

It is now. We just made a word understandable thing. And I love the idea that like, oh, to be engaged is simply to be engaged, to take part in the story to be solving it along with the main character. And it’s really, really fun. I love the sort of fish out of water kind of premise. Does that ever get old for you? Or is that something you continually enjoy coming back to?

David:

I like coming back to it. I really do. The stranger in the strange land, the fish out of water. Because I think there’s a… As writers we love or we try to give our characters some kind of growth in some kind of arc or just personal, I don’t want to development but personal discovery, I guess maybe. And those scenarios give, I think, the richest opportunity for that.

Sarah:

What do you hope that people will take away from your show?

David:

Surprise, wonder, definitely wonder. Just to paint a little bit of a picture for people not familiar with the show, it takes place a billion years in the future. And all these civilizations have ravaged the world and left behind all these super bizarre and strange things that have twisted, kind of the laws of nature and reality as we know it. So there’s a lot of heavy lifting that you have to do in this because things that kind of push the imagination have to be told in a way where people can kind of visualize a world that is nearly incomprehensible.

David:

So what I hope for is for people to be able to feel and see and visualize a world so strange and bizarre, and having to survive and make your way in it. Even as people who aren’t jumping all over the place like this guy is for just the everyday person who’s living in a town where the weather can have green rain that makes plants disintegrate. Just for people, to be able to put themselves there and find the wonder and strangeness in it.

Sarah:

Is that what you like most about stories yourself?

David:

Some.

Sarah:

Tell me more about what you look for and what you love about a good story.

David:

Oh, I love a story that can punch me in the chest and just make me feel the feels, and put me on the verge of an ugly cry. I love stories to make me feel and it could be just elation, or it could be devastation, not horrific, per se. But just the human condition magnified to the point where you ache for that person or you just break down with so much… Whatever that big emotion is, I love stories that do that. Which I don’t tend to tell stories that do that.

Sarah:

Why is that? I don’t know how to phrase this other than why don’t you break people with the stories that you write and tell? And what keeps you from doing that?

David:

Well, okay, I have to back that up. I’ve gotten feedback in this show in the other audio drama and other things where people have said, oh, it took their breath away. But I didn’t feel… I felt some of that as writing it. And I certainly, like in Ninth World Journal there are scene I’ve certainly been on the edge of tears as the character Januae.

David:

But I’m not going for that necessarily. It’s just a circumstance. And I kind of felt the moment and I just wrote it that way. But it just emerged that way. So it kind of surprised me. I guess, maybe to answer your question. I’m afraid that to write with the intention of breaking somebody’s heart is going to make it feel contrived and forced. Not that that’s true. But for me, that’s the way it feels. So I just write it and if it turns out that way it does. And if it doesn’t, then it’s a different kind of story.

Sarah:

Absolutely. That really reminds me of a similar fear that I faced. I was in a writing class in college and I wrote this thing that was really, like overwrought, and I thought creepy and cool and scary. And I read it out loud in this creative writing class. And like the first comment I got was like, “Wow, that’s really melodramatic.” And I was like, oh. And so now it’s like I also sort of distance myself from having it sound melodramatic or contrived. How do you put genuine emotion in there? And before I think the word that you used was it just sort of appears or just sort of crops up while you’re writing? I guess I’m asking where does that come from?

David:

The genuine emotion that can be built into it? I think what makes a big difference is having a framework of who that character is, what their values are, and their motivation is. And a lot of times that when I find scenes like that come up in what I’m writing, it’s because whatever their value system is, it’s been massively challenged. And it’s not written to challenge them as a mechanic. It’s written to challenge them as just part of the story. I don’t know. I feel like I’m not quite explaining it right.

David:

So if this is their journey, this is the character’s journey and in their journey, they come across things that will challenge how they perceive life as they know it and who they are in the world. And when it gets really big, and they’re massively challenged, then I believe it creates those things. But as a writer, I have to know who that character is or who they’re becoming, or who they think they’re trying to become. So that’s where I think it starts from.

Sarah:

I really, really love that. Yeah, letting it arise naturally from the character’s journey and the conflicts that arise because of the character’s value system. I love how you put that. Oh, I love that. I love that a lot. Oh, that’s wonderful. Sorry, I’m just like digesting that for a second. Sorry, I interrupted you.

David:

No, no, go ahead. But I had a question I wanted to ask you about what the writing thing.

Sarah:

Yeah.

David:

When you were in a creative writing course. And then somebody said it was melodramatic. Was that just one individual? Or was it a full consensus?

Sarah:

Oh, that is… Oh, that’s such a good question. Because it was one person. But I took it to mean every… I took it to be representative of every person in the entire universe, which is the danger of just accepting criticism without question, or without understanding why they’re criticizing… I just heard the word melodrama and I took a step back. And yeah, have you ever received criticism like that or done something like that?

David:

Yes. Yes. It wasn’t in a creative writing, but it was in a character portrayal. And it was a newspaper article that said it was, the words were “Broadly forced.”

Sarah:

What?

David:

The character I played, which actually, it was a Raisin in the Sun. And it was Walter, Walter Lee. And that my performance was broadly forced.

Sarah:

Oh, my gosh.

David:

I was devastated. But years later, I’m like, “Oh yeah, I guess it was broadly forced.” I got it.

Sarah:

What did you do with that information at the time? Like you said, you were devastated. Like, what did you do with that information?

David:

I think I just ground my teeth. Just because I saw it as just kind of an attack or a jab. But I didn’t understand where it was coming from. So I took it very personally. And I didn’t, to answer your question. I didn’t do anything with it. I didn’t do anything, but just kind of put my head down and push through and perform the way I had been performing. And saying, “How dare that person say that was broadly forced.”

David:

And 10 years later, I was like, that was a broadly forced performance. But at the time, I didn’t understand the mechanics of acting. So I was just doing what I thought I needed to do. And I didn’t have the luxury of good directors that could coach me and teach me and give me tools to make a difference. I mean, my acting still is broadly forced to die. But now I’m like, okay, that’s just part of my thing.

Sarah:

Interesting. Oh, my gosh. It can be really hurtful those those terms, you say the term broadly forced, and I can I can feel the feeling that’s behind that. And I can feel that there’s a lot of pain there. And how hard it is for us to let some of those things go.

David:

Yeah.

Sarah:

Well, I want to ask all of these questions about, I think you’re really one of the first actors that I’ve had on the show. I’ve talked with other like audio drama creators who act on their show. But you’ve also had stage experience. I’m curious and earlier you were talking about being a storyteller, and just appreciating all of these different genres. Stage and audio and short story. And I’m trying to think of something like smart to ask you that brings that all together. Do you think of the creative process as being embodied in all of those things? And what does the creative process look like for you?

David:

First, do I see them embodied in all those things. Yeah, definitely. You just you draw in different tools. But even though you’re drawing on different tools, there are common threads between each of those things. Some people can just wheel some more effectively than others, but they definitely kind of draw from a similar tool set. The execution might vary a little bit based on the talents or how far you dive into the medium of choice or whatever. And what was the second one?

Sarah:

The second one is what is your own process? I’m just fascinated by different creators, and that can be… I’m going to equate storytelling and creativity but I don’t know if that works, but I’m going to try for that. I would just love to hear about your creative or storytelling process and what that looks like for you.

David:

Okay. When the story, as it does for most of us just comes from a kernel, an idea. There’s just something you’re like, “Well, what if.” An example is the other show that Shannon Perry and I co-created and co-produced? You had an appearance in, Deconstructive Criticism. Yeah, that started from me listening to a podcast, I will leave unnamed, where there was a couple just… It’s just one of those conversational couple on a particular topic podcasts.

David:

And they were pretty civil and… But I could feel in the background, that the couple must have had an argument before they started. But it wasn’t apparent in their podcast. And I thought, what if we got to hear the recording that they edited out all their arguments? And that became the show, so it’s always those what if this happened, or what if that can happen? So you have that kernel to start with. Then you always talk about the pantsers versus the planners. And I consider myself a plantser.

Sarah:

I love that.

David:

I start with this idea, and then I just start writing and let the story flow out. And then ideas will come from way back, or that will take me, beginning with the end in mind, I will admit to not doing that.

Sarah:

Oh, I have no idea what any of my endings are. I have no idea at the start what any… I have to find my way to the ending.

David:

As a writer, me personally, and this talks about some of the… This touches on what we talked about a little bit earlier. For me to write without an end in mind, I find that as the story develops, because I don’t know where it’s going, most of us go through life and we have, we say, “Okay, this is my goal, or we may or may not have a goal.” But if we have a goal, we still are surprised on our way to that goal. Or if we don’t have a goal, we’re just constantly surprised.

David:

I think that the audience or the listeners or the readers, as we’re surprised in them, we surprised ourselves as we’re writing or creating this, it injects itself into the story that we’re telling. And then the readers are also surprised along the way. And I think that’s fun, and delightful. And then in the creative process, there’s a part of me that kind of like, tries to do that I’m going to use every part of the bison. I mean, not do the whole Chekhov’s gun thing, but so much, it’s like I’ve written something, and then I threw that in there. So then, several episodes later, or however far into the story later I’m going to use that. And then when you do it, the listener you bet goes, “Wow, they were really clever to figure out how to make that happen.” And we’re like, we really weren’t, we just said, let’s make this work. And it looks really clever. Okay, I’m giving away inside…

Sarah:

No, I’m the same way. Nope. Oh, I appreciate that. Oh, I appreciate that so much. Yeah, do you find… I like that being a plantser. Do you find that… So you’re happily typing out your story. And you’re surprising yourself every now and then. Do you have to do a lot of rewrites? Like, do you have to go back and say, “Oh, now I have to like redo this beginning part. Do you do that too?” Okay. What does that look like for you?

David:

It’s a grind until you find where you meant to go. I’ve got the… There’s an outline for… I just finished season four. And I did the outline for season four. And I say, “Okay, this is what’s going to happen in each of these episodes until we get to the end of season four.” And I had trouble getting to the end of season four. And then those last four, because there’s 11 episodes in the season, and the last four. I took them and I said… And I had this idea written down.

David:

I remember going back and saying, oh, here’s my outline. And that’s not really how it went. Because I was writing it, writing it, and writing and writing. And then something popped into my head that said, “What about this instead?” And throughout all of that, and pursued that storyline. And you want that to be there right out of the gate. And it never is or it sometimes isn’t. And so you’re like, I guess I just have to push through and keep writing and sometimes it’s like, something out there goes. You need to write the non working version to get to the working version, even if they’re not related.

Sarah:

How do you feel about that? You talk about using every part of the bison. Do you ever just really hate tearing out words or scenes or paragraphs that don’t work? And then do you try to re insert those somewhere else? Or try to use those or tell me a little bit more about using the parts that get cut out?

David:

Yes, I do try to use them because there’s something so tasty in this. And I’m dealing with writing season five, right now. There’s this thing that I wanted to put in season four, it just didn’t work. I couldn’t make it fit. And now I’m wanting to use it in season five. And I’m going, I really want to use this. But it’s really problematic. The audience would go, how did they get there? It kind of forced itself into this story. And so it’s how to do that. And sometimes you have to leave things on the table. Sometimes you have to leave bits for the buzzards.

Sarah:

That’s such a good metaphor.

David:

But yeah, you can’t always use every piece. But sometimes you find a piece that you didn’t think you were going to use. And you’re like, oh. Those are the fun moments.

Sarah:

Oh, I love that. I love that. I wouldn’t go back to something that you briefly touched upon. And I had to write this down as soon as you set it because it’s something that I struggle with. And you said, “It’s a grind until you get to what you’re looking for.” How do you deal with getting through the grind? When you are in a place where it is not fun what do you do to motivate yourself?

David:

Oh, goodness, that is a really good question. It’s bittersweet, because there’s a point where you feel like you have to kind of like put it down. But you can’t, and you just keep chewing over and over and over again. And to be honest with you. I don’t know if that piece that gets found is because I put it down or not. I don’t know. I want to know. Because then I can say “All right, David this is what you did. So let’s do that again.” But I think it’s there’s also a piece where I have to accept that something is not going to work. But that’s not easy to recognize. Because you fall in love with a concept or a bit or a little subplot. And you’re like this delights me. So there’s no reason it shouldn’t be in this story. Because delight is all part of it. So you don’t want [crosstalk 00:27:34].

Sarah:

You can see me over here writing again.

David:

Now I have a question for you. Because you’re talking about writing there. What is your note taking versus non-cerebral… Or your literal note taking versus cerebral note taking in your process? What’s the weight on that?

Sarah:

Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Okay, so my memory is terrible. And I also have a huge scarcity mindset when it comes to ideas. And so there’s always this fear that if I don’t write down absolutely everything into a notebook or onto a sheet of paper, that it will be gone forever, and I will never get a good idea ever again. And that’s kind of the mindset that follows me around. As much as I don’t want it to. And as much as I don’t like it.

Sarah:

And so for me I carry around… Our listeners aren’t going to be able to see this. But this is my planning pad for season two of Girl in Space. It’s like this giant actuary. I can’t even fit the whole thing in the screen. But it’s like, I have to write absolutely everything down. And I’m scared that if I don’t, it’ll all go away. Because it’s based on, you wake up at 3:00 AM you have a great idea to like solve this giant pothole. You’re like, “Great, that’s so good. There’s no way I will ever forget it.” You go back to sleep, you wake up. And all you wake up with is the feeling that you had a great idea. And now it’s gone.

Sarah:

So I don’t know if this is answering your question. But I have to write as much down as I possibly can. Which also means that there’s a lot that I write down that doesn’t get used. But again, I do feel like the pieces for the buzzards, I love that you called it that. Those pieces still serve a purpose. Even just in having been put down on paper, even in just existing because they’re steps along the way, they’re steps on the path. Even if you don’t go back and dig those steps out of the ground to like completely change the metaphor. You still stepped on them and they still had their usefulness, I guess.

David:

Yeah, it’s almost like a… If you’re talking about a character arc, for example. It’s like the path never taken. For us personally we’re like, “Well, what if I took that train the other day or what if I followed the boy or the girl or whomever to that other state or country?” And I didn’t? I mean, your life is your life is comprised… It’s like the whole thing about a song is comprised of the notes that are there and the notes that are missing.

Sarah:

Oh, I have not heard that.

David:

Oh, I don’t know what reference it is. But they often say that a piece of music not only consists of the notes that are there, but the notes that are left out or not part of the piece. It might be a little cerebral.

Sarah:

This is blowing my mind right now. Tell me more about what’s not there.

David:

Okay.

Sarah:

And if you don’t want to answer these questions, you can be like, “Let’s move on.” But I’m so curious.

David:

It goes right back to what you’re talking about, though, writing those ideas down and having them be on the paper. But it’s like we’re a result of the choices we make and the choices we didn’t make. Because the choice we didn’t make is part of the choice that we make. Because sometimes we’re motivated to make a choice, because that’s where we want to go. We’re also sometimes motivated to make a choice because we don’t want to go in that direction, the other direction. So it’s the avoiding of that particular other direction that influences this particular direction that we’ve taken or choice that we’ve made.

Sarah:

I think this is such an interesting concept, especially when you pair it with the fact that Januae has no control over his jaunts. Like, that says so much to me.

David:

Yeah. And his choices are not his own when the jaunts happen. And that leaves a lot of because… Yeah, I’m glad you said that, because he gets to a place, he tries to figure out how to survive and how to coordinate and how to navigate. Once he starts getting a rhythm. And sometimes it’s weeks, sometimes it stays, it doesn’t matter. But he gets that rhythm when he’s getting that rhythm, boom, he’s whisked away, and he’s off somewhere else. And he has to start all over again. But he doesn’t really start all over again. Because the events that happen, he brings with him to influence the decisions he makes in the next place. Whether they’re overt, whether they’re subconscious, or whether they’re just kind of a resume of experience. They’re still kind of there to some degree or another.

Sarah:

Oh, just like personally, this is very comforting. I don’t know, it can be so… Like we were just talking about it can be so overwhelming to look at all of the paths not taken in life and to just live the rest of your life regretting everything that could have been. But the idea of Januae learning as he goes, and just dealing with his uncontrollable jaunting and taking his own lessons with him. There’s something just really, really beautiful about that right now.

David:

I’m so glad for that.

Sarah:

Gosh, yeah. This fact that like no idea is ever wasted. No season is ever wasted. No step is ever wasted. Because they’re all taking you toward yourself. I love it.

David:

I don’t know how tangential this is, but do you have the struggle that I have that I want to do all the things? And I feel like I when I die there’ll be too many things that I didn’t get to do, or create.

Sarah:

Oh my gosh, and it’s… Okay, this is really funny. Because the next word I had down here, on my little notepad was struggling. I was going to ask, what do you struggle with most as a creator? So I don’t know if this is what you struggle with most. But I think this is a great topic. Because, heck, yes, I live in constant fear that like, I’m going to die tomorrow. And like, there’s all these things I didn’t do. And there’s all these things I didn’t write, and it just frustrates the heck out of me that we only get one life and it frustrates the heck out of me that it takes so long to create something when I want to create 700 somethings.

Sarah:

And earlier you said like you love writing short stories, and you haven’t yet tried a novel. And the idea of a project that large taking so much time and energy is just very frustrating, because it’s like, oh, I could write like 9,000 short stories in the amount of time it takes to write one novel. Tell me about your struggle with this. If that’s something that you struggle with.

David:

Yeah, it absolutely is. It absolutely is. I have a love of the audio drama and podcasting, but I have a concept for a nonfiction book in my head. And then there’s other things that are just creative that don’t necessarily fit in those boxes. But if I tried to do all of those at once, am I not giving enough of myself to any of those one endeavors at that time to really enrich it, to make it, to give it all the value and all the weight that I can.

David:

And the second part is, let’s see if I can remember what the second part of it was. I can’t remember it. But you and I, our birthdays are three days apart. And we’re Geminis. We liked having all those, several eggs in the basket and several juggling components. So maybe we’re going full circle that one creative endeavor will feed the other creative endeavor. I want to believe that, because gives you license to… Oh, I remember the other piece, it’s that I’m a widdler by nature.

Sarah:

Tell me. Okay. Like of wood or of ideas.

David:

Of projects and ideas.

Sarah:

Tell me more.

David:

There are some people that they get the project and they work on it start to finish and they feel like they have no right to work on anything else until this is done. I can’t do that. I need this constant, something else for a while and then come back to it. And like De-Crit is about a family and their everyday and they exist here in the modern world. And there’s nothing abstract about what they do. It’s comedy. It’s fun, and it’s silliness and it’s bickering.

David:

This is high sci-fi audio drama on the other side of billion years in the future. So some people will be like, “Well, how can you jump to one and then the other, and take your brain out of that, because you’re not really committing yourself to a process.” For me that is a process, I can break away from that one, let it digest and let it marinate while I work on the other piece. Once the other piece is kind of rolling, kind of go back to that or another and kind of jump bounce between them. And I’m going to convince myself that one piece is serving the process of the other.

Sarah:

I’m so grateful that you brought this up because I’ve been thinking about this a long time. I don’t know if you ever get a chance to speak with Marguerite Croft from Point Mystic. But I got to interview her several weeks ago. And she and I even in some of our private conversations have been talking about how important it is to have a secondary project going, for exactly the same reasons that you’re talking about.

Sarah:

But what I hadn’t thought of before was your point that am I robbing this, this project or this project of my 100% focus and dedication by essentially multitasking. And this is so fascinating to me. And I don’t know, I think that might be down to each individual creator. I think I’m like you, I think I need to have multiple things to focus on because I can run myself into the ground working on Girl in Space, and just really obsess about that to a point where it’s not healthy. And I love that, I love that.

David:

There’s a lot of permission that comes with that.

Sarah:

Tell me more about that.

David:

Well, like I think of Girl in Space. And I think of Shannon of Oz 9, she was kind of deliberating with Oz 9 because they just finished their season three finale. And she’s like, “Well, do we just keep plowing through? how much of a break do I take?” And her fear was am I going to lose people because I’ve been down so long. And I said absolutely not. And this is the same thing I would say about Girl in Space is that I have such a love for Oz 9, well being in it helped.

Sarah:

Yeah. Being a part of it, yeah.

David:

But before I mean, it was a long time before I hopped on and I was in love with it from day one. The same with Girl in Space, in love with it from day one. And to me it’s kind of like you do what you do when the next season of Oz 9 comes back, when the next season of Girl in Space comes back. I’m there. You know to me, there’s no time past in between because if something’s that good. If it’s that good and you fall in love with it you just wait. You wait for it to come back around, well not wait like a watched pot wait.

David:

But like a, I will be here when it comes back around because I have so much love and reverence for whatever it is you’re doing. Interestingly, I think it’s manifested itself in the way television series are done. Do you remember in the old days it was just like, well, this show’s on and now it’s summertime and now the next season starts and there’s 22 episodes. Now you can have eight episodes, two years has gone by and then they’re doing the next season. And people, if that didn’t work, they wouldn’t still be doing it.

Sarah:

I appreciate that insight so much, because my fear is very similar to Shannon’s. And if you guys haven’t listened to Oz 9 yet, I’m going to put links to all of these amazing shows in the show notes for today’s episode. Please do check out these beautifully crafted shows they are well worth your time. And it’s like not exactly an unfounded fear. I took a long hiatus from the Write Now podcast and saw a dip in my download numbers. And I took a unintentional long hiatus from Girl in Space. And well, I haven’t released Season Two yet because I’m still writing it. So I don’t know if I’m going to see a dip in those numbers. But I’m scared that I will. But what else can we do? But, keep creating.

David:

Yeah, and I get that fear. That is a legitimate fear. I think for anybody taking any length of break, I have that… I don’t know when I’m going to go into season five. And I have that same fear. I really can’t help but believe there are casual listeners and there are loyal listeners and the casual listeners. I don’t want to be disingenuous, because I don’t want to completely say that it’s really the loyal listeners that I’m after. Because I want the casual listeners too, we all do.

Sarah:

Yeah, we like those numbers.

David:

I don’t want to say well if you don’t want to listen to next season, because I waited too long it’s on you. I’m not going to say that. But at the same time, it’s the loyal listeners that just, they fill my heart so much. They really do. And you’re like, they get why we pour ourselves into these projects. And their love for reading or hearing or listening, or watching is the same as, or just as intense as our love for the creating process of it.

David:

So yeah, they’re going to be fewer than your casuals. But then the casuals will come and then more casuals will come in to replace those. So it’s all good.

Sarah:

Easy come easy go.

David:

Yeah. Now Sarah, I’m going to tell you that I tell… These are just self talk things. I tell myself these constantly. Because the fears just keep coming up. And I know they’re never going to go away. But I know that if I’m at least honest with myself about my fears, and I’m honest with myself about and I’m… Well, genuine about the self talk. It’s like I’m not sitting there saying you can do it when you know that your heart is going to burst out your chest because the hills too long, you can’t get to the top. And then you have no business trying because your knees are giving out. It’s not like that. It’s more like “Yeah, I see the truth in what you’re saying. And I’m going to bring it up myself. Because our fears will often bury those truths that we kind of have to tell ourselves.”

Sarah:

How do you unearth the truths from your fears? How do you go about that? Is it just repeating affirmations? Or what is that?

David:

It’s just a kind of a… I am a eternal optimist. And there’s just low thread of optimism that just kind of stays there, even when I’m like, if something feels like a push through, or why am I even going to bother continuing kind of thing. There’s this thing that says, you will find the fulfillment, if you do it, even if the results are different than what you think they’re going to be. Just that doing of it, it’ll manifest more than you think it will. It’s just that’s just kind of the way I do that, is preserve that little…

Sarah:

Thank you for sharing that I needed to hear that today. And I think probably, I’m going to bet that a lot of our listeners needed to hear that as well.

David:

Writing is so challenging, and it’s so… It can be lonely. It’s such an isolatory process. And I think that’s kind of why I’m so craving, starting the next… Because Shannon and I are about to… I think today we’re going to start talking about Season Two of De-Crit. And I’m so hungry for that, because Ninth World Journal is not only one because of the protagonist it’s just lonely because of his circumstance. But the process of creating is lonely. When you’re the one you bounce your ideas off of. And when you don’t trust the ideas you come up with, you’re like, well, then how can I bounce ideas off you if your ideas are working dude.

David:

So yeah, I feel for all of our writer compatriots out there because it happens. It crops up time and time again. And so I just tried to find these tools to just overcome those because sometimes they just feel like these giant, giant weights. It’s a Sisyphean kind of thing.

Sarah:

Gosh, it absolutely is. It absolutely is. I am so grateful for everything that you are saying today. This is so beautiful and so perfect and so necessary. Just breaking these concepts down with you is just such a joy. So we were talking a little bit about the struggle of do I take on a second project? Is that the biggest thing that you’re struggling with right now as a storyteller? Or what would you say is the biggest thing that you’re struggling with as a storyteller today?

David:

To be completely honest, it’s the same struggle I have every season. And is that this is going to be my sophomore slump.

Sarah:

Oh, tell me absolutely everything about this.

David:

Okay. Season One was just… I just threw it out there and blah, blah, blah, and people appreciate it. And then season two, I said, I’m going to try something different, going from the narrative to the dialogue based with actors, other actors. And it kind of reminds me of the shift between like, Girl in Space, episode one and then as the season went, it’s the same kind of thing. And people were very appreciative of it, and they loved it.

David:

And then I was like, oh, well, now I’m going to have to try to keep up with that in season three. And people loved that. And then season four, I’m like, oh, no, I’m going to have to keep up with that. And they introduced this strange mechanic and I… And in each of those, not only that, I took some kind of risk that I went, “I don’t know if people are going to like that I’m doing this.” And now in season five I don’t feel like I have that risk to take that really pushes me. So I’m like, where is it? How come I can’t find it? And now is this just going to be me telling stories to fill the gap, before the final season? I’m really… I feel like I… Jackie’s like, “Oh, you’ll come up with something, you’ll write something great, you always do.” And I’m like, “Yeah, but this time.”

Sarah:

But what if this time I don’t? What if? Oh, David. Oh, my gosh.

David:

Is that something that you fight and battle?

Sarah:

It’s something that… So I’ve been writing Girl in Space Season Two since 2019. So-

David:

Pandemic. Use that, you go that excuse built in.

Sarah:

It’s what’s kept me back. And so for context that we’re recording this in July of 2021, which is like two years later. And I’m still writing this thing. And it’s just, I am so horrified that people are not going to like season two. And that season one was a fluke. Because I did exactly the same thing that you did. I just dove in and made something fun for season one.

Sarah:

And with season two, I’m trying to plan and it’s just so different. But yeah, the sophomore slump is a phrase that strikes fear into my heart. And with all the work that I’m putting into season two it’s a little horrifying that I might be doing all this work just to create something that’s lesser. And then I start to think, well what, if I only ever create things that are lesser ever again. What if I’ve peaked? What if my best work is behind me? And then we get into that snowball and start rolling down the mountain. And that’s no good. So I want to hear more about your thoughts on this.

David:

Well, I’m thinking of like, for Girl in Space. Do you have any episodes a Girl in Space that you say, “That was an okay, episode wasn’t my favorite? I don’t know that I did my best work, but it really served a good purpose for the whole arc of the season.”

Sarah:

In Season One or season two?

David:

Season one.

Sarah:

Season one, yes. Many of them.

David:

Okay. So I think of… And I’m just now thinking of this, this is not me going, “Well, I go back to this every time.” I think everybody has what I call the, for musicians when the studio wants you to come up with an album and you get to come up with either this many songs of this length. And you’re like I got to get one more song in there. You just write a song, you put it in there, you’ve met your quota.

David:

Storytelling is a little different, because it’s not like that. But sometimes you have to have a piece that bridges events. But you can’t go from event Ci to event D because… Well, I should say you can’t go from event C to event E. Because D seems like it’s superficial. But it’s critical. And sometimes that’s our… And this is my fear for the next season that I’m going to write. Sometimes that it’s a functional thing. But to me, it’s more frightening to make a whole season, than just an episode. And I’m nervous about that. I’m like, I need to build five to create the final season of this show. And five, maybe more functional to kind of bridge that gap. And I’m like, does that mean it’s it’s going to be more utilitarian than it is going to be interesting or exciting. That’s my fear. And I don’t have an answer for you on how I’m going to get past that.

Sarah:

I don’t either I feel like I could probably like make something up, that would sound pretty convincing like, “Oh, just do this.” I also don’t have an answer for you. I think that all we have is just moving forward. And I think that the beautiful and wise Jordan Cobb, who creates Primordial Deep and several other amazing shows, called me out on something that I was doing the other day. Because I was stopping myself before I even started, because I was so afraid of creating something that was subpar. And she made me realize that we have a choice, and we can either stop or we can go. And when we go, when we move forward, when we create we do run the risk of what we create not being good or not being up to our standards or being less than we hoped it would be. But if we stopped then we don’t create anything at all.

David:

Yeah, exactly. I mean, her point is absolutely valid that you have to keep writing, you have to keep creating, and that it’s very, very difficult for us to give ourselves permission to create something that we’re not wowed by it. But that’s really challenging.

Sarah:

Because I’m like you I want wonder, I want surprise, I want discovery. And we don’t always get that.

David:

Yeah. And I’m trying to think of how you find it. And because at the same time, I don’t want to sit there and say everybody should just settle on what they consider their meh work. But I refer back to… And I bring Shannon up a lot, probably because I absolutely adore her. I listened to her partner, Richard, talk about how she’ll be writing stuff, and she’ll just crack herself up while writing.

David:

And I’m like, okay, then that’s it right there. But see, now here’s the thing is, even after she’s been cracking herself up and writing, then she’ll put the whole thing out and throw it out there and go, “Oh, I hope this works. I hope this is good. I don’t know if it is.” But yet, through that process, she found so much delight and joy in it. But once it was done, the moment passed. And that’s when the fears set in. So I keep having to use the Shannon example of laughing at your writing. As if I’m creating it, and something’s tickling me in it. At the time of creating it, then I need to have faith that if it resonated with me, it’s going to resonate with other people.

Sarah:

Absolutely. Well, I think a few minutes ago, we were talking and you brought up very briefly the idea of trusting yourself and trusting your ideas. And I wonder if this is just building the case of necessity for learning to trust ourselves and learning to trust our ideas?

David:

What validates that trust, though?

Sarah:

Outside opinion, and do we want it to be outside opinion? Do we want to look at our ratings and be like, “Okay, five star, five star, okay four star. Okay, okay, I’m doing okay.” And that is going to become my identity, this thing that internet strangers have projected onto me. Is that it? Is that what we want?

Sarah:

That is the biggest, paradoxical conundrum. I think seriously, and I grapple with this. Because I say, “Well you know what, I’m creating this because I love to create, and I’m putting it out there and people who enjoy it, enjoy it.” But if I’m completely honest, I want people to fall in love with what I create, I really do. And I can tell myself all day long. Well it’s really about the process and as long as I’m enjoying it, blah, blah, blah.

Sarah:

But if there’s dips or if there’s negative feedback of sorts, I’m going to sit there and go, “Well, then why am I putting so much hard work into this? If I’m my only biggest fan or whatever.” So how do you get to the point where it’s not all for you? You can dismiss what people say, good or bad or indifferent, versus being completely genuine that I want roses thrown at my feet when the thing is done. And being honest that yes, I do want that.

David:

Oh, that’s such a good question. And it’s a question I don’t have the answer to. And I’m curious, those of you who are listening, I want to hear your thoughts about this very issue. I want to know what you’re thinking. So if you go to the show notes for this episode, you scroll down to the comments, let us know, what do you think about this? What validates you as a storyteller? And I mean, is there one thing? Is it a mixture? 75% of it is self validation and 25% of it is the audience, or is there a mathematical balance? Is there some kind of alchemy at work? I want to know, because I don’t think I know.

Sarah:

I don’t either. I would love to know, I’d love to find that. I feel like there’ll be peace, if I could find that. But I don’t know if that’s really true. I just don’t know. It’s a big struggle.

David:

And maybe it’s one of those things that we’re not allowed to know, or maybe it’s one of those things that nobody has ever known. And we just have to make our peace with not knowing and just create anyway. But I don’t know. So if you’re listening, and you have an answer for us, that’s awesome. And I want you to let us know in the comments. Yeah, that’s so wonderful thing about. And I think I’d like that to be a lingering question. I want to ask David, where can people find you online? Where can they find your work? How can they connect with you? And I’ll make sure to put links in the show notes for this episode, but I want to hear it from you as well.

Sarah:

You can find my main website which contains audio drama stuff and audio book narration that I’ve done at DavidSDear.com. That’s dear like writing a letter to somebody, dear so and so. The Ninth World Journal is at NinthWorldJournal.com. De-Crit podcast, which, at least I don’t appear in that yet. That’s pretty much just writing right now. Co-writing with Shannon is at Dcritpodcast.com. And each of those has a Twitter account. So David S. Dear, the number 9, T-H, 9th World Journal, and De-Crit podcast all three are on Twitter. And my activity on there kind of goes and comes, waxes and wanes.

David:

That’s absolutely fine.

Sarah:

I check it.

David:

Yes. Oh, good. Good, good, good. Please do listen to a Ninth World Journal and deconstructive criticism and check out David’s website. Wow this conversation, like not to be too selfish about it. This is like exactly what I needed today. So thank you. And I think a lot of listeners are going to have the same feeling about this. So David, thank you so much for gracing us with your presence today.

Sarah:

Well, thank you for having me. Anytime I get to talk to you is a delight. It’s a treat. It’s an honor. It really is. I mean that.

David:

Thank you.

Sarah:

I mean that 100. Absolutely.

David:

So thank you so much.

Sarah:

Absolutely.

David:

Wonderful. All right, friends. I will see you next week. And until then, happy creating and happy storytelling.