This is The Write Now Podcast with Sarah Werner, Episode 41: Should Writers Be Paid?

Welcome to Wright Now, the podcast that helps aspiring writers to find the time, energy and courage you need to pursue your passion and to write every day. I am your host, Sarah Werner. And I’m just going to start things off by giving you a great big spoiler to the question that I asked in the title of today’s show, which is should writers be paid?

The answer is yes. Unequivocally writers should be paid for their work. But why and how much and what happens if someone says that I should write for free, because it gives me great publicity and exposure? These are all great questions. And we’re going to talk about them today.

But first, those of you who have been listening for a while know how much I love getting email and letters and all sorts of reminders that you’re listening and that the things that I’m saying matter and have value to you. And as I often do, I’m starting off today’s episode reading an email from podcast listener Marie from Portland, Oregon. And Marie says, “Hi, Sarah. I just found your podcast today and I’m binging on it so hard. It’s delicious. Thank you so much for putting such a thoughtful and gracious podcast out for us to drink in.

I’ve recently begun to call myself a writer. I’ve been working on various writing projects for the last seven years and on January 10th this year, I decided to finish the first draft of my novel by March 31st. At that time, it was 50,000 words and only about halfway done. It had been untouched for over five years. I did it. I wrote another 50,000 plus words and finished. I’m starting the edits now and your podcast is so encouraging. It’s just the fuel I need to keep going. Thank you, Marie.”

Marie, thank you so much for your beautiful words and for those gorgeous analogies. Actually, I love the idea of people drinking in inspiration and encouragement. I just love that. So thank you so much for writing in. I’m so excited that you found the courage and energy that you needed to go back and finish up your novel. I love that you’re starting editing. Which actually I like editing. I think it’s a really fun process. So I’m so excited for you and I’m so proud of you.

And if you’re listening and if you’re in Marie’s shoes, if you have a novel half-finished and you’re sort of uncomfortable calling yourself a writer, don’t be. You are a writer. As so often tell you, you’re a writer. If you love to write, if you put words down on paper, if you engage in the act of writing, you are a writer. It’s like when I go out for a walk and I’m walking in that time, I am a walker. Or when I go to my job every day and I do work, I’m a worker. When you sit down to write, you’re a writer and it’s good to call yourself that.

And so I encourage you. If you have a work that’s unfinished, or if you even have an idea in your head for a book that you want to write, I say start. Start and then keep going and then keep going. And I think that you’ll be really, really pleased with the results. Marie, thank you again for writing into the show.

If anyone else out there wants to write in, you can send an email to hello@sarahwerner.com. That’s S-A-R-A-H-W-E-R-N-E-R.com. You can also go to the show notes for today’s episode on sarahwerner.com. And you can scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and there’s a little comment box where you can leave your thoughts or whatever you want to say right there. Alternately, you can go to my website, navigate over to the contact page. And there’s a handy little form there that you can fill out.

So I want to talk today about getting paid for your work. This is something about which I feel very strongly. And the reason I’m talking about this now is for a couple of reasons. First of all, books are back in a big way. It’s currently 2016 and I remember maybe five or six years ago, there were all of these articles coming out in journals and papers and whatever saying, “Oh, books are dead because e-books are here.” Or “Oh, reading is dead because everybody’s texting now.”

And I love that the human race has proven those people wrong. We have shown that we love to read. We love to read books. No matter what form they’re in. Even though sales of traditional paper books are on the rise. They’re so popular that Amazon is opening up a brick and mortar bookstore. Books are back in a big way.

On the other side of things if you’re a writer who doesn’t write books, if you’re a technical writer or if you write for online stuff, online journals, blogs, what have you, without going into a long and overly complicated explanation, Google changed their search algorithm a couple of years ago. And they continue to change it based on what they’ve determined users want to read and what users want to learn from.

And what they’ve discovered, and what people have discovered is that the pieces of content online that do the best are the most well-written, the most informative, the most enjoyable to read. And so corporations who are engaging in what’s called content marketing are hiring professional writers to write for them online. What we’re seeing is a shift to writers being in very high demand. And I love it. Maybe I’m a little biased, but I think that that’s how things should be. Writing is a craft. Writing takes skill and talent.

And I want to be very careful here. There’s a distinction that I want to make. First and foremost, anybody can write. I believe that with all of my heart. If you are literate, if you can in some fashion form ideas and transfer them from your brain onto paper or a computer screen or into an audio recording device, you can write. And this is a beautiful thing.

It’s sort of like saying anyone can draw or anyone can paint. This is also very true. I am capable of picking up a paintbrush, dipping the paintbrush into paint and kind of smooshing it along a piece of paper or a canvas. I’m not going to tell you that I’m any good because I’m not. And I think the same goes for writing. So while everyone can write, maybe not everybody has taken the time to learn how to write well, and that’s okay. I could, if I were so inclined, take painting lessons and become very good. I could become a master at the craft of painting.

So what I’m trying to say here is just because everyone can write, or everyone can paint the potential to do those things does not equal the craft and skill that you need to get paid for doing something well. And the reason that I’m saying this is not to discourage you.

If you are a beginning writer, you are in an amazing place. There are so many books to read. There’s so many different things you can learn about the craft of writing. And it’s going to be really exciting to see yourself grow as you dedicate your time into your talent and help yourself flourish.

I’m telling you this, A because I believe it’s true, but B because it’s also something that I’ve come across in my career. The notion that just anybody can write has really devalued the hard work training and skill that go into becoming a masterful writer or a professional writer or a writer who knows how to craft a message or communicate clearly to meet the needs of the people she or he is writing for.

I say this because I have been in that situation. I’ve been in that place before where I’ve been told “No, Sarah, we won’t need your services. We need the professional designer and the professional developer, but we don’t need a professional writer. We have interns. We need these other professionals, but we don’t need you because we don’t value professional writing. Or we don’t see the difference between a professional writer and an unprofessional writer.”

I’ve also been in the situation where my writing services were valued at half the cost of everybody else’s services. And it wasn’t because the people that I was working for believed that my time was not worth as much as everyone else’s time. It was just because of the perception that just about anybody that a company pulls off the street can write well for them. So the time for a marketer or a strategist or a designer or a developer was worth X amount of dollars. My time as a writer was worth X divided by two. Suffice to say it was a little bit disheartening.

And since then things have been remedied. And my time is now valued as much as anybody else’s on the team. But I think that the notion that just anybody can write, continues to harm the writing community as a whole. Again, I do believe that everyone can write and that probably even though I’m biased, everyone should write. I think it’s great for you. It’s good for your brain. It’s good for you to process things. Writing is an amazing gift and we all have it.

Inside your heart is a story that you need to tell. And I think you should tell it. In the telling of it though, I believe that it’s our responsibility as writers to work hard at our craft and to become good at it. To practice, to read, to understand how to write characters well. To develop an ear for dialogue, to understand what works online, what works in print. I hope that that all makes sense.

Basically, what I’m saying is if you want to be a good writer, and if you want to get paid for your work, you need to put in the time and develop your skills and your natural talent. You need to practice your craft. You need to write every day. This is why I tell you to read and write every day. That’s how you get that practice. That’s how you build that skill. That’s how you bolster your own talents.

I want you to be a good writer. So the reason I’m bringing all of this up is I read kind of a disturbing blog post last week. The blog post was written by a writer who writes eBooks. And so this writer posted a piece of hate mail that she had received from a reader because this writer, this author, had the audacity to charge money for her work. The gist of the unkind letter that the author received, essentially told her that slapping together a story did not merit pay and that the readers were entitled to her work for free. And what business did she have charging money for fiction?

Now I would love to say that this is an isolated incident, but I don’t think it is. I think that this is something writers deal with all the time. I feel like I have a unique luxury and that I get paid for my work because I’m a salaried writer. But there’s a lot of writers out there who are extremely talented and work incredibly hard at their craft, but are expected to do it for free. Whether it’s through an unpaid internship, whether it’s in response to quote unquote, getting exposure, whether it’s to get publicity or to build up their name as a writer.

This is a problem. I was talking with my brother, it must have been a couple of years ago now. And he’s an architect. And we were talking about this new job he had gotten and being the rude, nosey older sister that I am, I asked him how much it paid. And he said the two words that I was really hoping he wouldn’t say. Those two words were unpaid internship.

Now I get that some fields are very competitive, but my brother was a new graduate with thousands and thousands of dollars in debt. Maybe you’ve been in this situation as well. Now, granted, he was getting the opportunity to learn on the job in a professional setting. It was a prestigious internship, even though it was unpaid. It was with a very good firm. But these new grads who have no place to live, who are drowning in debt, the minute they graduate, they don’t have the luxury of wealthy parents or Aunt Judy’s inheritance, what are they supposed to do? How is money supposed to come in when you have an unpaid internship?

I mean, yes. Experience is valuable. Yes. Getting your name out there as valuable, but you know what else is valuable? Eating food. Not being homeless. Paying off your student loan debt. I get really, really upset when I hear the words unpaid internship, because I believe that we are on this earth for a very limited time. And that time is precious to us. And in fact that time may be invaluable at its core. And when you are expected to give of your time, I believe that it is right to be paid for that time. Even if it’s just a stipend.

My blood pressure is totally going up right now as I talk about this. So I work for a digital agency in Sioux Falls South Dakota called Click Rain. And whenever I interview candidates for open internships, I always make the point to say, we’d love to have you work with us. And yes, we do pay our interns.

It is such an important point to me. Life is expensive. Your time is limited. You deserve to be fairly compensated for the hard work that you do. Whether you’re a production assistant, whether you’re a teaching assistant, whether you’re a writer or a social media manager, you deserve to be paid for your work.

I saw a great tweet the other day. I spend a lot of time on Twitter as you may or may not know. I tweet both under my own personal name at Sarah Rhea Werner. And I also tweet under Write Now podcast. And so I was kind of looking around online like I do. And I came across this wonderful tweet. Essentially it said, “You pay a Starbucks barista $5 for a cup of coffee that takes them 3 minutes to make. You probably then also tip them for their time. Why then is it so hard to pay a writer $1.99 for their ebook? Why is it so hard?”

Going back to the piece of hate mail that this author received about the audacity they had in charging I think it was a $1.99 or $2.99 for their ebook. I mean, think about all of the things that we buy that takes significantly less time to craft. I’m not devaluing the work of baristas because if you know me, you know that I have a love for coffee that surpasses very few other things other than books, writing, reading, family. Okay. Maybe there’s a lot of things.

But why are we saying that the time of a barista who’s making coffee is worth essentially several hundred times more than that of a writer who dares to write, who dares to bring unique thoughts into the world through their craft, who dares to challenge systems or make people feel welcome and loved and accepted?

I worked for years for a public library system and then for a private library at a university. And one of my very favorite things is that you can get books for free from the library. Oh my gosh. I sound like such a jerk saying that. I feel really passive aggressive. So I apologize for that. But if there’s a book that you want to read, and you can’t afford it, which I understand, maybe you’re one of those struggling college students and you want to read and you feel entitled to enjoy the art. And that is absolutely fine.

Don’t send hate mail to the author. Go to the library. A library card is free. And if the library doesn’t have the book that you’re looking for, they have what’s called purchase requests. And this is true. I used to fill these out all the time. You go to the library and you say, “Hey, I’m really interested in reading so-and-so book” and they’ll give you a form or maybe it’s digitized now. I don’t know. But back in my day, it was a paper form. And you’d write down the name of the book, the author, and you would give us a librarian and they would add it to their purchase list. And then you could check it out for free.

If you get to the point where you’ve maybe suggested too many books to the library, or if their budget is low or if they’re not well-funded or anything like that, there’s also inter-library loan which is free as well. And so if another library within the nearby vicinity or within the system that they’re in has the book, they will ship it to your library at no cost to you. So please know that virtually any book that you want to read can be obtained for free at your local library.

I love libraries. I was super poor growing up and we couldn’t buy books. And so I pretty much lived at the library and there was such an abundance of great things to read. The librarians were like family to me. Libraries are a pillar of the community. So please do support them.

Man. I’m kind of feeling like this podcast is like Sarah gets really, really worked up about her own sociopolitical beliefs. So far we’ve got writers should be paid for their work. Libraries are important and don’t send hate mail to writers. But you’re a writer or some kind of creative presumably if you’re listening to this podcast.

There are so many writers and creatives who agree that you should be paid for your work. Whatever your thoughts on Wil Wheaton, who used to play Wesley Crusher on Star Trek, The Next Generation. He is now a successful writer slash internet celebrity slash personality and was contacted by an online journal to do a bit of writing and blogging for them. And he said, “Okay, that sounds great. How much per word do you pay?” And he got back the response “Unfortunately, we are unable to pay our writers at this time. However, by publishing with us, you will get tons of free exposure, blah, blah, blah.”

And this set him off on a bit of a rant on Twitter, which you can find. I’ll try to embed the tweets in the show notes for today’s episode so you can read them. But, here’s what he said verbatim. “Writers and bloggers. If you write something that an editor thinks is worth being published, you are worth being paid for it. Period. This advice applies to designers, photographers, programmers, anyone who makes something, you deserve compensation for your work.”

Basically he’s saying this because those editors, those blogs, those online journals, newspapers, whatever it is you’re being asked to write for for free, they’re making money off of what you’re writing. And they’re keeping that money. Even if it’s not a publication that sells, they’re very likely making ad revenue off of your work. This does not strike me as fair.

You may be familiar with Harlan Ellison. He has written books, novels, essays, screenplays, lots of different stuff in science fiction. I got this excerpt from openculture.net, which I will link to in the show notes for today’s episode. But basically it says in his documentary, he describes receiving a call just the day before from quote “a little film company, seeking permission to include an interview clip with him previously shot about the making of Babylon Five, a series on which he worked as a creative consultant.”

“Absolutely.” Ellison said to the company’s representative. “All you’ve got to do is pay me.” This simple request seemed to take the representative who went on to insist that while everyone else is doing it for nothing that it would be good publicity, quite by surprise. “Do you get a paycheck?” Ellison asked. “Does your boss get a paycheck? Did you pay the tele scene guy? Do you pay your cameraman? Do you pay the cutters? Do you pay the Teamsters when they schlep your stuff on the trucks? Would you go to the gas station and ask them to give you free gas? Would you go to the doctor and have them take out your spleen for nothing?” The article goes on from there. And again, I’ll link to it.

Now when you write something, when you create something, you own it. And it’s up to you if you want to charge for it or not. It’s up to you if you feel like you deserve to be paid for the work that you’ve done. So I’m not saying that you have to charge for your work. In fact, Cory Doctorow gives away his books for free. And he does it because he is very invested in his message and he is an agent of social change. And so he has the wherewithal and he has the means to give away his work for free, because it means a lot to him and because he’s able to afford to do that.

And again, if you see your writing is just a hobby, or if you have some other motive for giving your work away for free, by all means do that. But I am going to be very, very loud and proclaiming that if you feel that you deserve to be paid for your work, yes, you deserve to be paid for your work.

So then the question often becomes, “Well, how much should I charge for my work?” And I actually have some answers for you if you’re interested. So if you’re a beginning writer, who’s looking to get involved in freelancing, you should be charging between eight and fifteen cents a word.

Now this is based on your experience, and so if you’re not as experienced and if you’re looking to get a little bit more experience, I would go for the eight, nine, ten cents a word. But if you have publications to back yourself up and you know what you’re doing, I wouldn’t settle for less than ten cents a word. Go to fifteen, twenty, whatever it is. And when we’re talking about cents, it doesn’t sound like a whole lot, but it adds up. It adds up to a fair wage for the amount of time and effort and skill that goes into what you’re producing.

So I know that this podcast is usually a sort of, “Yeah, you can do it. You’re a writer. You’re awesome. You can write your book. Go team.” And this episode still is that. Hopefully it doesn’t sound like I’m too jaded or too focused on money. But what I want to do here is fight back against the societal assumption that A a writer’s time is worth less than anyone else’s time. That B for those of us and yourself included who have the passion and have put in the time and the talent and the skill into improving your craft, that time is worth something. And not just anybody that a company pulls off the street can write to the level that you can. Three it’s devaluing the hard work that writing actually is.

I know that sometimes when I tell people that I’m a writer, they kind of react to it in the same way that if I said, “Oh, I get to sit in a pit of puppies all day and just play with puppies.” They’re like, “Oh, how fun? Oh, you must just have the best time. Wow, that’s hardly work at all.” When really if you’ve ever written anything for any serious anything ever, writing is hard work. Even if you’re writing something that sounds like fun.

Yeah. I’m writing a novel about cats in space and their spaceship is shaped like a unicorn and they’re fueled by rainbows and love. Like, “Oh, that’s fun. How much fun that must be?” It’s like, “No, actually it’s hard work.” That was a bad example. But I think, you know what I mean. It’s fun and we love it. But at the same time, it’s a struggle and it’s difficult. And you deserve to be paid for your struggle and your time and your labor as much as anyone else.

Again, if you just want to write as a hobby, or if you want to be like Cory Doctorow and give it away for free, then please do be empowered to do that. My intention with this episode is to help other writers not be taken advantage of by corporations, by editors, by publications that are going to be making money off of the work that they are doing for free. In my mind that is not okay.

So at the end of the day, it’s up to you. If you want to give your work away for free, by all means, you can do that. But at the same time I want to empower you and encourage you to realize that what you’re doing is worth something and that you should never be afraid to ask for fair compensation for your work.

Once again, you can see, this is something that I care a lot about. I wanted to take an episode to talk about this because I think it’s important. And I think it often gets swept under the rug when we talk about our love for writing. Because just like anybody else, we’ve got bills to pay.

Now I know that some people may be like, “Oh, Sarah, you’re such a hypocrite. You tell us to get paid for what we love to do and here you are podcasting for free.” To that I say, Yes, I’m a little bit of a hypocrite. But like Cory Doctorow, this is something that’s very important to me. And I would rather get my message out there and not be paid for it than to not get my message out there at all.

So, yes, I’m a little bit of a hypocrite, but at the same time, I also have set up ways in which if you find value in the work that I do here at the Wright Now podcast, you can give back a little, if you like. I do have a tip jar set up on my website@sarahwerner.com. It’s one of the main nav items there. And you can donate via Patreon, which is a secure third party donation platform that allows you to give 50 cents an episode, a dollar an episode, whatever, $900 an episode, whatever you feel like that’s worth. And then there’s also, I have a paypal.me set up if you want to give just a one time donation.

And once again, I understand if you are not in a position to donate financially, I totally understand that. Another great way just to help out the podcast is to tell your friends and family about it. If you have a friend who a writer or who loves writing or is just creative in general and could benefit from some of the inspiration and encouragement I give through this podcast, tell them about it. Download an episode for them, have them look it up. Let me know, and I’ll send you … I have some little merch merchandise things that I can send you. I’ve got magnets and business cards and mugs and all sorts of things. And so just let me know.

Speaking of Patreon, I want to express my gratitude for my wonderful, wonderful Patreon supporters. These are the people who helped me pay for media hosting and podcasting equipment all of those little costs that come along with any media production. Special thanks today go to official cool cat, Sean Locke, official bookworms Matthew Paulson and Rebecca Werner, official rad dude, Andrew Coons and all of the other supporters who have indicated that they prefer to remain anonymous.

You are all wonderful. And I thank you so much from the very bottom of my heart. It means so much to me. Other, thanks today go out to Marie from Portland, Oregon for her very, very lovely and kind words. Once again, if you want to reach out, you can do so at hello@sarahWerner.com.

Otherwise there are a couple of other ways to get in touch with me like I said before on my website. You can also find the Wright now podcast on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, [Ello 00:00:30:11], not LinkedIn. I don’t think I’m really good at the LinkedIn thing. But yes, I’m also on Pinterest and Tumblr and you name it and I’m out there. I maybe went a little overboard in my social media platform presences, but there you have it.

Oh man, I got so into talking about writers getting paid today that I kind of don’t want this episode to end, but I think it needs to end. Because you have things that you need to go do. Maybe you’re on your way to work, maybe you’re on your way home and you’re going to go hang out with friends and eat dinner or dare I say, do a little bit of writing.

I really hope you do. Whatever level of a writer you are, whether you’re an aspiring writer who’s never written a thing and you’re just looking for the encouragement and courage to start, or whether you’re a seasoned veteran who is working up the courage to get paid for their work … Or whether you’ve written a million books and you’re a best-selling author. I guess in that case, I’m very flattered that you’re listening to my podcast.

But no matter who you are or what writing level you’re at, I appreciate you. And I’m so grateful that you’ve decided to listen today. And with that, this has been the Write Now podcast. The podcast that helps aspiring writers and writers of all levels to find the time, energy and courage you need to pursue your passion and to write every day. I’m Sarah Werner. I know that writing is hard work and I believe that you should be paid for that work.