Taking Down Hustle Culture with Amie McNee – WNP 139

Sarah Rhea Werner:

This is the Write Now podcast with Sarah Warner, episode 139, Taking Down Hustle Culture with Amie McNee.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Hi, friends, welcome back this week. I am so happy to not perhaps see you, but to be here in the space with you to talk about creativity, and writing, and journaling, and all manner of things. I have a wonderful, exciting guest for you today. This is Amie McNee. And I first discovered Amie, I think through Instagram. And I think that’s how a lot of people discover Amie, and I’ll have links to her Instagram and everything in the show notes for today’s episode so that you can follow her too and be inspired. But I discovered Amie through Instagram. And through that Instagram, I discovered not only her podcast, which is called Unpublished, which you should also listen to, but her courses.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And so, I took Amie’s journaling course. And if you remember I did an episode of the Write Now podcast ages ago after I took Amie’s journaling course. And it was like, “Oh, my gosh, I have this new journaling habit. And it’s beautiful and amazing, and it’s all because of Amie.” So, I’ll also put links to that if that’s still being offered in the show notes for today’s episode. I feel like this introduction is getting long. So, I would love Amie to say hello to you. So welcome to the show, Amie. I’m so happy you’re here.

Amie McNee:

Thank you, Sara. It’s such an honor. As you know we love your work so much, and it’s just so good to get to sit down and talk to you about all the important things.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Well, same, same. I am so excited you are here. I would love to start off with a question about your podcast. And more specifically, the name of your podcast. Your podcast is called Unpublished. Can you tell me a little bit about why you decided to start that podcast and where that name came from?

Amie McNee:

Of course. So, I’ve actually been doing my podcast for quite a long time now. I probably started it maybe five years ago. I now do it with my partner but I was doing on my own when I first began, and I was really moving through a lot of rejection through with my novels. I was receiving hundreds of rejection letters in the process of submitting my fiction novels to publishers. And I was navigating what it meant to be a writer who was unpublished. And so, initially, when I started off the podcast, I was recording this journey of what it meant to be creating without that connection. And life has had its twists and turns and my journey’s changed now. I am now published, and I am now connected with so many people, but it really… It still resonates with me, and I still feel like it’s a part of me that I want to always be tending to and mothering other artists because we are all… No one is exempt from that process of rejection.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love hearing you talk about these things because you talk about them so gently and with such grace and love. And I want to ask you about the concept of mothering in just a little bit. But before we do that, so how did you take that journey from being unpublished to being published? And we have your first fictional book, I believe, coming out soon, which we’ll talk about in just a little bit as well. But yes, tell us a little bit about that journey.

Amie McNee:

It’s been so big, and it’s really on my heart as I’ve gone through this stage of particularly publishing my fiction books. So, in the journey that I’ve been on, I published nonfiction, but as of today, the pre-order is out today. I’m finally publishing my fiction novel, which is my original craft. So, it’s been a really big journey, and it’s really one that’s on my heart right now. Specifically today, it’s super on my heart as I move into this new moment, a new path, I guess, on this journey that I’m on. And I wrote a big article actually about what this journey was like from being unpublished to choosing to self-publish, and it was really tumultuous, and it was at times very painful. And I had to rewrite so many narratives [inaudible 00:04:13] really, really small.

Amie McNee:

I felt like because publishing houses didn’t want my work that I wasn’t being chosen. That meant I was a failure. And for years and years and years, and I’m still dealing with this story to this day, in this very moment. I believe that by picking myself, and by self-publishing it meant that I was a failure, and that the idea of self-coronation and self-choosing was the secondary option. And really it was conceding to the fact that nobody else wanted you. I’ve just been on this process of shifting that narrative understanding that choosing yourself is not only way harder than being chosen by someone else, but it’s way more profound. It is way more meaningful and it has a way greater impact on your life.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I feel like I have a little bit of insider information because I’ve listened to your podcast for years, and so I’ve followed you on this journey. But hearing you share this now at this place where… And I don’t want to save necessarily arrived because I think that we’re still… We’re still getting there. But what I really love in hearing this is how your mindset has changed. And I think that the places that you have been are places that my listeners are in right now. They’re struggling with feeling like self-publishing is valid or legitimate. I love your response to that. What was it that flipped that switch for you that made you realize that, wow, I’m choosing myself, and that is way more powerful than having some randos at a publishing company choose me?

Amie McNee:

I wish it was a flip switching. I feel like that would have almost been… Well, it would have been quicker. It’s taken years. It’s really taken years. So, I stopped submitting this book, The Rules Upheld By No One probably four years ago. She was finished and submitted and rejected. She got picked up for like a hot minute and she got corrupted, and it was a real roller coaster. And so, that probably ended up maybe three or four years ago. And since then, I’ve just been on a journey of having to understand that I wanted to blame external forces for why I wasn’t being able to connect with my fiction, and I did for a really long time. Why don’t you see me? I know with my whole heart that I’ve written a really good book, but why don’t you see me?

Amie McNee:

I was so angry. I was so angry, Sarah. That is really valid because the rejection process is brutal. If we’re talking specifically authors, it is really (beep). If anyone’s moving through this is really valid. But it just wasn’t serving me because for four years nobody read my fiction. It just wasn’t taking me anywhere, and it had to come to a point where I was like, “I can blame the gatekeepers, and I can blame a really (beep) system all I want, but it’s just not going to get me to where I want to go.” And where I want to go is I want to be an author who writes fiction and connects with people. The reality that I was in my way, and I wasn’t giving myself permission. And beyond the gatekeepers not giving me permission I was sending myself rejection letters every single day that I didn’t self-publish my book. It was really heartbreaking to realize that I was mourning rejection from publishers, but in reality every day that I chose not to do this was just me doing exactly the same thing that they were doing to me.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That’s so insightful and so heavy. And, wow, I want to let that sit with my listeners for a second because I think a lot of them are feeling that anger and that resentment, and why don’t you see me is something… It’s so hard. And knowing that you have to make yourself be seen is just such… It can feel so overwhelming, especially if you’re not versed in marketing and all of that stuff. There’s a lot there. One of the things that I’ve heard throughout your speech as we’ve been having this conversation is you talk about your own narrative, and I really love that. You talk about your narrative as a story that you’re living while you’re creating these other stories. Can you tell us a little bit about that mindset? And just as a curiosity for me, does that come from the journaling?

Amie McNee:

Yes. So, I talk about the narratives that I have. I think, I’m guessing that I came to this idea or concept. I’m sure it’s stolen from someone. But I would watch my journaling, and there were stories that I was telling myself. So, nobody wants to see me, I create in a vacuum, I can’t connect. The fact that I want to be a writer is shameful. I have a child that won’t grow up. They’re all stories. And as creatives, as storytellers, it made sense to me to understand the way that my brain was working through this lens of narrative. And all these narratives that I was telling myself we are storytelling creatures. It’s how we function. This is how our minds function. It helped me to be able to get a bit more control and also a bit of distance from the narratives so that I could be like, “Okay, that’s the story I’m telling myself. Well, is it true? No. Can I really know that it’s true? Can I tell a different story? Is it getting in my own way? Is it getting me small?” These are the questions that I was able to ask when I was able to label them as narratives.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

There’s something so both powerful and frightening about that. It’s one thing to be completely in charge of forming your own reality, which is awesome. But then there’s also, oh, my gosh, I’m in charge of forming my own reality, which is horrifying. I don’t know. Do you struggle with that at all, or I don’t know is that… That’s not a good question.

Amie McNee:

No, no, I understand what you’re saying.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Okay, good. Okay.

Amie McNee:

It’s an overwhelming realization to understand that you have power over the stories and that it’s not an external force or it’s not something intrinsic. It’s not Like an absolute truth that these narratives exist within you. And the idea that you can change them is a huge responsibility. And it’s very overwhelming. For me, that’s why journaling was such a… Well, it completely changed my life because it was a really controlled, and easy way for me to show up, and approach these narratives, and rewrite new narratives.

Amie McNee:

I did it every day in the morning. It didn’t have to be serious every day. So frequently all I did was just take deep care of myself every day. But it was a method in which I was able to rewrite my narratives and choose the life that I wanted to live. And it was quite a structured way to do that. So, instead of being overwhelmed with such a giant concept, which is, “Oh, I can retell the story of my life.” I really saw it in the form of writing. And for writers, I mean, you do not need to be a writer for this practice to change your life. But as writers, we’re really good at this, and it’s such a beautiful method to start changing the stories that are keeping you small.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

It so is. I want to ask; how did you get started journaling? Are you one of those people who has been journaling their whole life, or did you start recently, or how did this happen?

Amie McNee:

I have diaries from when I was very, very little. I have always written. I have diaries from when I’m four or five years old. I would write to my mom every night letters in this journal, and she’d write a letter in reply to me when she went to bed and I’d read them in the morning. That was my first form of journal. But my first consistent practice, I’ve been journaling, I think it’s 1290 days or something in a row, and that’s the journaling that’s changed my life.

Amie McNee:

I came to that through Julia Cameron’s, The Artist’s Way, [inaudible 00:11:41]. The Rules Upheld By No One had just been dropped by a publishing house. I had just lost my job. I moved in with my in-laws. My depression was next level. I had nothing to do in the mornings. And so, I had a Julia Cameron’s The Artist’s Way on my shelf for years. I was like, all right, took it off my shelf. And every single day, I was like, “Just read a tiny bit of this book, Amie, and you’ll have done something at least.” Unemployed, deeply in debt, rejected artist that I was. Then I was like, “Oh, this journaling thing, I’ll just try it,” and then I literally have not stopped.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love that so much.

Amie McNee:

It’s wild.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love that so much.

Amie McNee:

Everything.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Tell me a little bit more about how it has changed things. So we’ve talked about Julia Cameron’s The Artist’s Way on the show before. It’s fantastic if you haven’t read it. Tell us a little bit about how you adopted these morning pages and really made it your own practice and what that meaningfulness looked like to you? It’s a word.

Amie McNee:

So, actually, I don’t know how I made it my own. I think it took time. At first, I was like Julia Cameron says write three pages. So, I’m just going to write three pages. But then as I started understanding what the process looked like, specifically for me, I could see how like vile I was to myself, and I started witnessing the stories that I was telling myself because I had that distance. It’s very hard to witness our narratives within our mind. So many of us and completely reasonably find it hard to distinguish ourselves from our thoughts. But when they’re on the page, there is distance. And so, I’d write it down, and I’d reread that sentence and be like, “Holy (beep), I’m so mean.”

Amie McNee:

I was able to start looking at these narratives. And then what happened was at the end of this journaling… I was never holding myself back. I let myself articulate what I was feeling. But at the end of these journaling sessions, I found this new voice that just appeared on the pages because I couldn’t leave my journaling after being such a horrible person to myself. But at the end of my pages, I just found this new voice, and she would always be like, it was just this gentle, divine magical voice that would come in at the end and be like what, “You know what baby, I know this is so (beep) hard, but I’m so proud of you for just getting by the day.” And she was mothering me, and she was taking care of me.

Amie McNee:

It came quite instinctually for me to just take care of myself at the end of my journaling practice. And this way of writing just developed more and more. And I called it mothering because it felt like a really maternal, gentle, caring voice that appeared on my pages. And she was a rewriting of the narratives. She would sit me down at the end of this vile, “Your a piece of (beep). Why the (beep) do you think you can do this?” And she’d be like, “Well, you know what, you were just really mean to yourself, and you don’t deserve that.” She was just this completely new voice that just rescued me from depression, from narratives that were just so cruel, from all the roadblocks away in my way.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

So, if we are in a place where we find ourselves saying unkind things to ourselves, what does it look like to develop a more caring and nurturing voice toward ourselves?

Amie McNee:

I love this topic. It’s really complex. It’s not just as simple as saying kind words yourself. A lot of us specifically don’t have very much good relationships with our mums, which can make it even harder. So, I often encourage people who have issues with the mother figure in their lives not to call it mothering, to call it something else. It’s just learning to be gentle with yourself. And that does not come easily for many of us. And so, I mean, I’ve got books and courses about this, and I offer phrases and words to use because we’ve just got to get used to what it’s like to talk to ourselves differently. And it’s going to be very uncomfortable for a lot of us initially.

Amie McNee:

You’re going to not believe the words you’re saying. It’s not going to feel good. It’s going to feel cringy. It’s going to feel gross. But this is the process of changing narratives. It’s never going to be comfortable, unfortunately. So, I always just encourage you to… I mean, I love to do the practice of sitting down with my inner child or like a younger version of myself and being like, “What did you really need to hear? What were you receiving as a kid?” And to me, that looked a lot around taking rest and timeout.

Amie McNee:

You don’t have to work so hard. I really need to do hear that as a kid. You’re doing enough right now as it is. Just take a break, take a breather, my mothering voice says that a lot. So, if this is something you want to play with, I really encourage you to sit down with a young version of yourself, and just be like, “What did you need?” And you might have received a lot of what you need, and you can use that to, but often, the really powerful (beep) is in the stuff that you didn’t receive as a kid. And it’s now your turn to re-parent yourself, and to mother yourself through the journaling pages.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I’m over here nodding. Those of you who are listening, you can not see me, but I’m getting a headache because I’m nodding so much. This was one of the things and again, I’ll link to Amie’s journaling course, in the show notes for today’s episode, it was definitely life changing for me. What would you say to people who, okay, I would love to talk to myself in this loving, nurturing way. And I would love to rewrite my narrative and even change how I interact with myself. But I don’t feel like I deserve it, or I feel it makes me feel guilty, or I feel like I’m just lying to myself?

Amie McNee:

I mean, I see you and this is what it is like for so many of us trying to change that narrative. And this resistance is a sign that it’s time to go on this journey. And it’s going to feel really uncomfortable. And at times, you’re going to feel really guilty and really icky and you don’t deserve it. And you need to notice that. So, often what happens in my journaling is something like that happens. So, if my mothering voice comes in and says, “You are pushing yourself way too hard baby. Just get a cup of tea and cancel your plans because you need to take a rest.” And then my inner critic comes in and says, “You (beep) think you can take a (beep) rest when you do X, Y.” And I write it down, and I will write it down on the pages. And I’ll be like, “This is what I think.” Then my mothering voice comes back, “I really need you to take a breath, Amie, because this language is totally inappropriate, and these standards you wouldn’t put upon anyone else.” And I create dialogues like that. So it allows space for both of us on the pages. So the two narratives interact with one another, and you can… It’s not like you’re ignoring the feeling of not deserving it. You’re interacting with that feeling and acknowledging that it does exist.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Right, and engaging with it. And I feel like when you do that, wow, you do get some agency in that conversation. Whereas before, I think the inner critic, you’re just letting it tell you things.

Amie McNee:

I realized that a lot of the time those narratives that are really brutal stem from fear. So, just ask yourself, what are you afraid of? Just a mothering coming in and being like, “That was a really explicit and cruel thing to say to yourself. Is there a fear behind that?” And then, instead of approaching it like a war between two narratives, let that mothering voice sit with this really in pain and terrified part of yourself, and just let them explain themselves. I think too many of us see the inner critic as this violent, cruel monster to be defeated. But in reality, I like to imagine it as a seven-year-old version of me who’s having a (beep) tantrum.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love it.

Amie McNee:

I’m like, “How can I serve her because she’s really scared, and she doesn’t want me to do X, Y, and Z, because she doesn’t think she’s enough. And she doesn’t want me to do that because what if this happens?” And instead of me being like, “You’re being so mean to me, I hate you. I never want to see you again.” That mothering voice can come in and be like, “Wow, you’re clearly really upset and afraid. Can we talk about this? What’s actually happening here? Can we go a little deeper? Why is it that you don’t think you can have a rest? What fear is sitting behind that? Let’s talk about it.” And having that dialogue is the process of transformation.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Dialogue is the process of transformation. I feel like already this is going to be one of the episodes of my own show that I listen to again and again. Some great poll quotes. Oh, that’s fantastic. We are responsible for our own journeys. We’re responsible for our own transformations. And I think a lot of us just don’t even start that journey because it’s so overwhelming and we don’t know how and you are providing us with the first step in that journey. And I think that’s so beautiful. Thank you.

Amie McNee:

Thank you. It’s such a beautiful thing to say.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I’m really glad that we got to talk about mothering and journaling because that is so essential. Do you do your journaling in the morning before your creative work or what does that creative process look like for you?

Amie McNee:

Yes. So, I’ve played around with this, but the only thing that works for me is I journal first. Journal first, create immediately afterwards. So, I’m not allowed to do any muggle work, any business staff, no anything boring before my creativity. If I do that I’ve (beep) up and my creativity won’t get done. It has to be prioritized, even among some most urgent of tasks. But it always comes after my journaling. Journaling is like a little meeting with myself in the morning. And it’s just like, “Hey, how you going? What’s happening?” I can’t shift into that creative space until I’ve done that for some reason.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I really appreciate that. I’ve been listening to Unpublished once again, and listening to you talk about work and rest and the balance that comes in there. What is your daily schedule look like now? Maybe I should ask about your thoughts on rest first.

Amie McNee:

Yeah, we can talk about that.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Okay.

Amie McNee:

My thoughts on rest are [inaudible 00:21:11]. I mean, for me, my journey with the hustle culture, and the obsession, and addiction to productivity has been really huge, and it’s going on to this very day. I am finally seeing narrative changes. And just back to our conversation, narrative changes take ages. So, one of my journals probably takes three months to fill. And by the end of that three months, I can start seeing maybe hints of narrative change. But I’ve been working on hustle on productivity for 1200 days, and I’m finally seeing some real evidence that narratives have shifted for me. But it is big work, because it’s one culture is just ingrained, and you will see it everywhere, everyone will make you think that productivity equals worth, and that rest is laziness.

Amie McNee:

I had just soaked it into my skin. I don’t know why I was so susceptible to those stories, but I was obsessed with them. And if I wasn’t working, and I was already trying to do something so different with living a creative life. I hated myself. I was like, “You are a piece of (beep). You think you can spend your days creating? I’m staging, and then create.” The language around that was just so violent, and I became so unwell because I was completely obsessed with this idea that productivity equaled worth. I’ve just had to untangle it from my own narratives. Again, I’ve done it through that mothering voice. I’ve looked at the fears behind the addiction to productivity, how I’ve validated myself through hustle. It’s been a really big journey. But I want to live a life where I’m rested, and I want to live a life where I can experience joy and slowness and work at my own tempo, and I’m finally not feeling guilty about that.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I have been working on a very, very similar thing. I am probably, I don’t know, I would say I’m probably among the world’s top 10 slowest writers ever. [crosstalk 00:23:07]. I just get so angry with myself. And every day it’s this internal Battle of I hate myself, I hate my writing. I’m so slow. Everyone hates me. And then, no, it’s okay. You’re writing a 75,000-word project. You can’t turn it out in just a couple months. And so, it’s just this anger, justification, defensiveness, it all gets mixed together.

Amie McNee:

It’s a really messy journey untangling this particular narrative from ourselves. It’s not going to be neat at all, but I love that, Sarah, and I just want you to know that I think that the fact that you are still a writer is really beautiful, and I know you won’t hear that from literally anyone.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

No, no.

Amie McNee:

I think I love talking about how slow I want to live my life and the tempo that I want to honor because we just don’t hear about it that often. We don’t hear about people being successful and creatively abundant, and making loads of money, and simultaneously doing it slowly and restfully. And that’s the narrative that I want to make sure everyone understands. I’m living full time as a creative. I’m making money. I support me and my husband, and I’m doing it slowly, and restfully and I feel really (beep) good, and this is possible.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love that, and I love that you said this as possible. I feel like a lot of people want it to be possible and aspirationally say, “One day I’d like to quit my job and be a full time creator.” But they don’t think that it’s actually possible. It’s a pipe dream. It’s whatever, but it’s not because you’re doing it, I’m doing it. It’s possible.

Amie McNee:

Yes, I love us, and I love that we are speaking out. I just want all… It’s just so possible. This is my real drive. I just want you to know how possible this is. It’s more possible each day. The world is just shifting in favor for creatives to be making money, and you don’t have to hustle or burn out in order to achieve it.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. One thing if you are struggling with hustle culture is Amie had recommended on one of her episodes… Oh, what is it? Now, I’m going to forget. It’s by Devin Price. Oh, my gosh.

Amie McNee:

The laziness slug? No. That’s… They talk about-

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Laziness Does Not Exist.

Amie McNee:

Laziness Does Not Exist.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Thank you. Okay. We got there eventually. And it’s funny because I recommend this book to like everybody now, but it was so life changing. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes for today’s episode as well. If you really want to start digging deep into why you believe you’re worthless if you’re not being productive. And if you want to start transitioning into a narrative that says, I am valid, just how I am and I am allowed to create at my own pace. Laziness Does Not Exist is a fantastic place to start your journey into that.

Amie McNee:

Devin’s incredible. We’ve got him on the podcast in the next month. I’m so excited to get to interview them and to pick their brains. They’re a really good place to start if you almost don’t even believe that hustle culture is a real thing. And like I really didn’t believe it. Like that was part of the problem was I was like, “Oh no, I really think that hustle has moral value.” And I needed someone to break it down for me to show me why it just is (beep). And Devon’s book a really great place to start with that.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love it. I love that you have him on your show. I’m so excited.

Amie McNee:

I’m so excited.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Good thing. Oh, my god. I’m going to listen the heck out of that one. Yeah, no, I was in the same place as you. I thought actually, hustle was good, and I have a new episode of Write Now coming out in just a little bit here about how we drive ourselves into burnout thinking that we’re doing something like morally… I don’t know, what’s the opposite of reprehensible, morally good, morally pure.

Amie McNee:

[crosstalk 00:26:53]. I only felt like I deserved good things if I was ghosted.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

You have to sacrifice yourself, essentially, to get anything, and that’s not what it’s about. Oh, we’d talk about this forever.

Amie McNee:

This podcast would go on for a very long time.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Welcome to our 10 hour episode. I’m Sarah. I have so many questions, though. I mean, I would love to keep you here for 10 hours, but also I respect your time, and I want to actually like show that instead of just telling it. So, hey, I’m really excited. The Rules Upheld By No One is your historical fiction book. It’s coming out. I’m not 100% sure when we’ll release this podcast. Right now as of what is it? August, August of 2021. It is available for prerelease, and it will soon be available just I think Amazon and maybe some other places.

Amie McNee:

Will be everywhere, basically. At the moment, it’s just a slow roll out at the moment. It’s just amazon for prerelease. But next week, September 1st is its release date. So, it should be out and about.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Wonderful. September 1st, tell us, so you’d worked on this book a long time ago, and it is just now being published. Was there a lot of downtime between when you finish writing it? Or did you revise it amidst all the sending out and rejection letters? Tell us a little bit about what this beautiful books journey looks like.

Amie McNee:

I wrote this book during [inaudible 00:28:21], actually in 2017. And she just fell out of me. It was just the easiest book in the world to write. I spent six years writing a book before and this book fell out in six weeks, and I mean, the first draft, and then I took revising. Worked with a beautiful editor to shape her up, but it was a really… For me, it was such a quick write, and I just felt so good, so what I wanted to do, and I’ve written two more historical fiction novels since then. It’s really my genre. I love it. So, it was a quick writing process and then it was a quick submissions process, too. I submitted it after I worked with my editor. I submitted it to publishers afterwards. And that’s when the rejections started rolling in.

Amie McNee:

It got picked out for about a week, and then it got dropped, which was a wild journey. A few people who have been following me for a long time remember that day on my Instagram because it was like a hot mess of Amie, as you can imagine. So, that was that was a lot. And then after that, I think it was just after that rejection after she got dropped I just let it go. And that was the gap. So the actual writing process, submission process, rejection process probably all happened in a process of seven or eight months.

Amie McNee:

And then the years between that have been just me navigating what it felt like to be so unseen. What it felt like to be rejected in that way. It really affected me. I sit with it. It really did affect me and I think a lot of writers feel shame for how badly rejection is feels, and they’re like, “I got a thick skin, got a thick skin.” It’s really a difficult process to navigate. And for a long time, it just stuck with me. I knew I had this idea that I didn’t want to self-publish because self-publishing was going to mean that I gave up. That was the narrative I had to fight. That was three and a bit years of fighting that narrative and now we are here.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

What a ride? Does it feel very strange to be promoting a book that you wrote essentially at a different stage in your life. Is there a disconnect there for you?

Amie McNee:

It does, actually, and it’s a very intimate book. It’s a story of about sexuality and sex and intimacy. And then it was a real story of a younger version of myself. And I still really appreciate I told this story. I still relate to it deeply. But it is funny connecting back to a much younger part of myself. I’m still extraordinarily proud of it. I personally think it’s well written, and I’m proud of my younger self for doing such a good job. But yeah, it is strange. I’ve been rereading it and practicing because I’m doing an audible version of it. So, I feel closely connected to her again because I’ve had to read so much, which is really nice. And I’m so excited to do the audible version. It’s like, I don’t know why, but this is like my dream come true. I’ve always wanted to narrate audiobooks.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love this. Oh, and you have a great voice for it. This is going to be fantastic.

Amie McNee:

Thank you. I’m very excited.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh, my gosh. So I’ve noticed that you refer to your book as she. Can you tell me a little bit about this?

Amie McNee:

I’ve always called my books by their main character names. And so, I’ve always called this book Elizabeth. The Rules Upheld By No One was a name that I managed to whisk from the ether a few months ago, really. So she’s been Elizabeth for four years. And so, that’s how her pronouns came into existence because they’re Elizabeth pronouns, and it suits her.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Does that change, do you think to how you relate to the story and to the book itself?

Amie McNee:

As in the pronouns, or the fact that I call her Elizabeth?

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh, both. Either or both.

Amie McNee:

It doesn’t make me feel like it’s almost not my story it’s Elizabeth’s story because in my historical fiction novels that I’ve written they’re all first person, all very protagonists lead, very internal world books about how we grow as people. And so, they do feel owned by that main character. And so, yeah, it feels like Elizabeth’s book, but I like using pronouns because they do feel like little entities in themselves, and I call them my book baby. I like referring to them. I like just giving them a little bit of a human quality. It reminds me how important they are.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I’ve heard other writers refer to their books as like, “Oh, this is my baby. This is my book.” But I’ve never heard a writer before, who referred to it as its own entity like that, and not in relation to themselves like as a possession that they own or created.

Amie McNee:

Yeah, interesting.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

So, I think that’s fascinating.

Amie McNee:

Yeah, I’ve never thought about it in that way. It does feel very separate to me, especially with all the time that’s passed.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes.

Amie McNee:

Yeah. It’s really interesting. She’s my little girl.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love it. You said you have a couple other books, fiction in the works moving forward?

Amie McNee:

So, interestingly, after Elizabeth got rejected, I kept writing. I didn’t start writing fiction. I went straight on to a new book. She’s called Mod, and she’s about witches, the late 16th century. So, that’s fun.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Just over here rocking out.

Amie McNee:

She’s nearly done as well. She just needs a copy edit, and she could be whisked on away. And I’m working on Jack at the moment, which is a story about… It’s a mystery historical fiction. I’ve always been obsessed with solving crimes, and I have always been a big… What genre is this? What am I trying to say? [crosstalk 00:33:54].

Sarah Rhea Werner:

True crime, mystery?

Amie McNee:

Murder. [crosstalk 00:33:58] kind of thing. So, it’s like a detective historical fiction, which I’m writing right now, which is really interesting because it’s a bit of a genre change. But it’s so much fun and that’s in the early 1600s, and Jack, who is my detective.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love it. So you have a background in history.

Amie McNee:

I do.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I’m trying to like figure out a way to word this question without leading you to a very specific answer. Did you start telling stories that were historical before you got interested in the academic side of it? I’m not asking this well.

Amie McNee:

I grew up in the UK, and I was absolutely obsessed with the history side of things since forever. I loved it. I would daydream about it. I just thought the stories were so magical. My area of interest is like 1400s to late 1600s. I’ve just always been entranced by that. So, that’s always been a part of me for a very long time. But I went to uni and studied medieval history specializing in medieval sexuality with pornography and sex work, which is just the most niche, most wonderful, full of stories area to buckle down in.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I bet.

Amie McNee:

Yeah, it was addictive for me. I just couldn’t believe how many stories and also not super investigated areas of history that were just ripe for the picking. And there was no way that it wasn’t going to lead me to write many novels. It was just so fruitful and fascinating. I loved it.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

It’s so interesting that that gives you so much fodder for that. So, I majored in English, and the writing side of things, and that really doesn’t leave you with a whole lot of rich historical context to draw from. So, I love that. I love that. You have two projects in the works now. It sounds like you have a pretty good system of I write this book, I write the next one, I write the next one. What was your… I mean, aside from the rejections, which are awful and painful, what has been one of the things that you’ve struggled with in the craft of writing?

Amie McNee:

Yeah, okay. I’ve gotten very good at first drafts. That’s never where I’ve struggled. I do a 500 word a day situation for first drafts, and it’s just a really easy way for me to show up and get the work done. And it’s really (beep) it makes very little sense, big potholes, but [inaudible 00:36:24]. So, I started Jack only a few months ago, and there’s 20,000 words there. That’s literally just 500 words a day. It blows me away. Really big fan of the small goals each day. But the editing process, I find much harder to dissect into small goals each day. It’s just not as easy or tangible to make small goals out of. I find it hard. And also, I’m not very good at the smaller details. I can get really frustrated. And obviously, I’ve just blinded myself with a complete (beep) show the first draft, which was really fun to create. Also, makes no sense. And so that, especially second draft, it can be very overwhelming for me. And I’m learning how to break that down into smaller sections, but that’s definitely where I’ll find myself procrastinating the most.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Procrastination. Can you tell us a little bit about your thoughts on procrastination, please?

Amie McNee:

I can. I think I have a lot of thoughts about procrastination.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Amie has a book about procrastination too, which I will link to in the show notes.

Amie McNee:

Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about this. When I work with creatives, and obviously I’ve worked with a lot of creatives now. Nearly, I would say 99% of people, their biggest issue is procrastination. It’s really common. I think a lot of the times it doesn’t need to be a problem as in we don’t need to be as concerned with it as we are. We are going to procrastinate. It is a part of being a creative. We don’t need to be a (beep) to ourselves every single time it happens. It just is going to happen. But I do think that a lot of us can become stuck in cycles of consistent self-betrayal where we lose faith in ourselves, we have absolutely no trust in our own word, and we have a very broken relationship with ourselves.

Amie McNee:

Procrastination in a consistent pattern can really cause a rupture in our own faith in ourselves and trust in ourselves. And that’s where we need to really look at it and find some healing. And for me, the healing came in with small goals each day, which is the perfect way to rebuild that trust. You say you’re going to do something and you do it. Incredible. The next day you say you’re going to do something and you do it. I’m not talking about a lot. I’m talking about 100 words, or I’m talking about you sit at the computer for 10 minutes. We’re just proving to ourselves that we’re taking our word seriously, and we’re healing a relationship that was broken again, and again, and again.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Hearing you talk about that is really, really mind blowing because I think to some degree I wasn’t even aware of how to trust myself, and that I could learn to trust myself again, and that you learn to do that by building habits and proving to yourself that you can trust yourself. Just this issue of trust that’s tied up in procrastination has just been incredibly mind blowing to me.

Amie McNee:

Yeah, it was really revolutionary to me too when I realized that I was so nervous of my own promises. And I was so every time… I was like, I used to be really big on making ridiculous word counts each day. I’d be like, “Okay, well, tomorrow, I’m going to write 3,000 words.” The nerves and like, “Oh my God, I’m going to let myself down. Oh, my God, I hate myself.” I know I’m not going to be able to do that. That narrative is so damaging to yourself, to the relationship you have with yourself. I just have no (beep) clue why I would do that. I was looking back on my stories, my archived stories on inspired to write and I’m just sitting there telling people, “Tomorrow I’m going to write 3,000 words.” I’m like, “Why are you saying this? You’re not.” No, no.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

So, what do you tell yourself now? And have you noticed that there is an issue with being aspirational or achievement oriented with having a smaller word count that you’re reaching for?

Amie McNee:

As in is it harder for me to reach for success with small goals? Or is it hard to maybe-

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Is it hard for you to make peace with the fact that… As maybe as somebody who is ambitious, how do you reconcile a small word count? Like, “Oh, I should be reaching for more.”

Amie McNee:

That’s a great question. I so much more successful, and I’ve achieved so much more by having just the most pitiful goals. I’ve learned that because it’s true it. That’s again you have to prove it to yourself, you have to show it, you have to do it long enough to realize, “Oh, yeah, this is way better than these ridiculous goals.” I am extraordinarily ambitious. I just have a drive to want to create, connect, make impact, and it’s just within me. And I satisfy all of those desires through small things each day. And I finish books with small things each day. I connect with people with small things each day. It’s just the only way I’ve ever achieved real connection, real success is by doing it in really, really embarrassingly small goals each day. And we have to try it to believe it, but it’s real.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. So, where would you suggest that someone start? So, somebody has a full-time job, and they’re like, “I want to write 3,000 words a day, and I only have an hour before work.” So, what would be a reasonable place for them to start?

Amie McNee:

This is going to be really individual, and I think a lot of people love to… I say I do 500 words. So they’re like, ” I can do 500 words.” But I’m telling you, that might not suit you at all. 100 words is incredible. And you need to make sure that it’s something that you can do. That’s the only requirement. It needs to be small enough that you can do it without any issues. So, 100 words a day, I have creators I work with who do 100 words a day. Again, books still get written. You can grow that as you learn to trust yourself. But the whole part of this right now is learning to trust yourself. Learning that you take yourself seriously. This is about self-respect.

Amie McNee:

This is about learning that you are respecting your creative ambitions, your creative desires, and we do that by showing up consistently. So, it just doesn’t matter what your word count is if we’re talking specifically writers here. It doesn’t matter what your word count is. All I want you to do is be able to do it, and you’re going to be able to grow over time. But your ego is going to have a big fight about it. And you need to sit down. And again, I would say journal about it. Listen to that ego because there’s going to be fear behind that, and you need to listen to that fear, and you need to take care of yourself, and mother yourself through that fear so that you can do this hard work, which is do a small amount of work each day. Beautiful.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I’m going to wrap things up. Amie, where can people find you and your work and your podcasts and your books? And how can we support you?

Amie McNee:

Okay, the main place that you can find all those things is on my website, which is amiemcnee.com and my name is spelt A-M-I-E M-C-N-E-E. But you can also find me on Instagram at inspiredtowrite. There’s probably the main two places. As Sarah said, my podcast is called Unpublished, and I do that with my husband, James. But you can probably find that all from website or Instagram.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Wonderful, wonderful. And can you leave us with one of your favorite pieces of writing advice?

Amie McNee:

We went on and on about [crosstalk 00:43:32]. I mean another one that I absolutely have to abide to, and I didn’t get a chance to mention is you have to let it be (beep) and always point to your big (beep) pile of art, then you’re not truly doing the work. So alongside of doing the 100 words a day, if you were sitting there trying to make them the best (beep) 100 words you’ve ever written in your life then you are not doing the work. And again, you’re letting yourself down. It is a requirement of being a creative that we make bad things. That doesn’t mean they have to stay bad. That doesn’t mean they have to see the light of day, but it is absolutely a requirement that you make work you’re not happy with. And the fact that you think you’re exempt is ridiculous.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

So, there you go again.

Amie McNee:

[inaudible 00:44:17]. I mean, perfectionism procrastination always going to be so tightly interwound. That ego is going to want you to write so many words per day and they’re going to want you to have written to the highest quality, and they are the very thing that is stopping you from being the most profound and abundant author that you can be.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Amazing. Amie, you are just a glowing, beautiful beacon of delight. I am so happy that we got to hear some of your words on the show today. Please do visit the show notes for today’s episode. I’m gesticulating wildly, hitting my microphone. Click on the links, check out Amie and her amazing work, especially her Instagram and her website, as she mentioned. And Amie thank you again for spending time with us and sharing space with us today and sharing your story as well. We truly appreciate it.

Amie McNee:

Oh, my God, Sarah, this was all I needed today, honestly. I’m so grateful for you.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That just makes my day so this is fantastic.