Sarah Rhea Werner:

This is the Write Now podcast with Sarah Werner episode 124, Beautifully Broken with Sean Howard.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Welcome to Write Now, the podcast that helps all writers, aspiring professional, and otherwise to find the time, energy and courage you need to pursue your passion and write. I’m your host, Sarah Werner. And I have another interview ready for you today, and I’m really excited to share it with you. So, first to answer a question that I’ve had from a lot of listeners know the Write Now podcast is not permanently becoming an interview show, because I like to be 1,000,000% honest with you, I’m going to tell you that every time I’ve sat down to record a… I don’t know if I call them monologue episodes of Write Now, but every time I’ve sat down to record an episode of Write Now in the more traditional way, just me and the microphone, I go through my list of topics and I just get into this awful panicked place.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And I’m going through my list of topics. And all I can think is, “Oh, I’m not qualified to talk about this, or I’m not good enough to talk about this, or I have no idea what I would say about this topic. I don’t have enough experience or I’m not smart enough.” And to be honest, which is what I’m going to be in this episode, I think a lot of this is coming with some depression and anxiety that I’ve really been feeling lately. I’ve wrestled with anxiety and depression for pretty much my entire life. And in, God, I want to say, 2015 or 2016, I finally went to a doctor and talked about it and have been on antidepressants and anti-anxiety medication for about the last probably five or six years. The medication hasn’t made my anxiety and depression go away. That’s not really how it works.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

What it does is just make sure that things are a little more smoothed out. So, the lows aren’t as low as they have been. But I have no idea why for the past two or three weeks, it’s been bad again and I’ve been on the same dose of medication. And it’s been really, really, really, really hard to function every day, to feel excited about my work, to feel good about this beautiful life that I have. And the funny thing is I fully intellectually aware that I have a really beautiful and wonderful life, but when the depression and anxiety get their nobbled little fingers digging through my brain, it can be really hard to see or remember that. And maybe this is something that you’ve dealt with as well, maybe this is something that you’ve never felt, maybe you’re struggling with something else entirely, but lately I have just felt so deeply exhausted and inadequate and not enough.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I hope it’s okay that I’m talking to you about this, but I think it’s important that I tell you the truth and that even people like me, who, from the outside are very bubbly and positive. Sometimes we just can’t muster the inertia, the motivation, the wherewithal to get out of bed or to take a shower. My partner Tim has been so kind and caring and generous lately and will very gently remind me sometimes that, “Hey, Sarah it’s been a couple days, maybe you should go take a shower and take care of yourself, you’ll feel better.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I had the distinct pleasure and honor, recently, of being able to speak with one of my literary heroes, Anne Lamott, who you may know as the author of Bird By Bird, one of the very first books that I read on writing. And in our conversation, which was recorded, so, hopefully, I’ll be able to share that with you soon, Anne talks about the importance of what she called a beloved community. And Tim is part of that community. And I also have a close knit group of friends who are mostly also writers. And this beloved community is often the thing that keeps us going, that reaches out, that helps us understand who we are and where we are and heals us.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

So, I get to hang out with these beautiful individuals. Well, some of these beautiful individuals every Friday afternoon and I get to hang out with Tim all the time, which is great. But last week we met and I was like, “I’m just drowning. And all I can think about is how useless I am and how I’m not qualified to teach anyone anything.” Yes, even though I absolutely just had an episode of the Write Now podcast about trusting yourself, these things come and go in waves.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And just because we learn something, I think it doesn’t mean that we live it forever after. Doubt creeps in and anxiety creeps in and depression creeps in and other things creep in and steal away that confidence of the new learning that we just discovered. So, I just allowed myself to be completely and radically honest. And I admitted to my writing group that I was behind in recording Write Now episodes that I had nothing I thought of value to say, or to share. And one of the members of my group, Sean Howard was like, “You know what? We’re going to jump on a call right now and record a conversation. And that’s going to be your next Write Now podcast episode.” And, of course, my first gut reaction was resistance. And I was like, “Oh no, Sean, don’t waste your time. Don’t worry about it. I’ll be okay. I’ll think of something to talk about.” And Sean was like, “No, let’s do this. You’re ready?”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

So, what follows here is a very, very candid discussion with my very, very good friend, Sean, about mental health and creativity and how none of us are perfect. And then it’s okay to ask for help and accept help when it’s offered and that these beloved communities that we have, these beautiful people who surround us, make our lives more full and rich and beautiful, then we could make them ourselves. Quick, final note. As usual, there will be show notes for this episode out at sarahwerner.com. That’s S-A-R-A-H-W-E-R-N-E-R.com. I invite you to leave your thoughts, your comments in the comments section for this episode. If you’re comfortable sharing, I would love to hear about your own experience with mental health as a creator and just how you’re doing, because I think that we have a beloved community of our own. So, without further ado, here is my conversation with Sean Howard, beautifully broken.

Sean Howard:

Why do we believe? Why do consciously we know we’re not broken and yet we’re so quick to believe we are?

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), wow. I wonder if it is partially the way that we’ve been socialized, the way that we’ve been brought up like, “Okay, so here goes Sarah on a rant.” But the way that societies work is you know something’s wrong, if something’s different. I feel like we internalize that. And so, from a really tribal way of looking at things, if something sticks out, it’s a problem that needs to be fixed. It’s not necessarily something that we should honor in venerate, even though often it is. And I think that growing up in systems that are maybe a little bit stricter than they may be could be such as, I grew up in public school system. I grew up in the church. I grew up in these places where there’s very hard coded ways to act and think and exist. And if you think an act and exist outside of a lot of those rules, then you’re the problem.

Sean Howard:

There’s no room or recognition for neuro-atypical.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes, exactly.

Sean Howard:

Or any difference, whether it’s sexual or behavioral or mental.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah, exactly.

Sean Howard:

Or identity driven.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah, exactly. And I think that we’re very slowly as a society getting better at loving people and respecting differences and even just acknowledging that different does not mean broken or bad. It just means different. And I think we’ve internalized so much of that. And we’ve also like really venerated this idea of what it means to be typical or normal. And we all want to get there. That’s like a destination that’s been set up for us. It’s like, “Oh, how can I course correct my behavior and my entire being so that it more tightly conforms.” And a lot of that is… I’m going to go on this like rant, but so much of that too is fear-based because we’re afraid of being disliked or cast out or abandoned or whatever, because we all just have this innate desire to fit in, despite what all the Disney and Pixar movies tell us about how nice it is to stand out. So, those are some of my thoughts just right off the bat.

Sean Howard:

Yeah. How do we not smooth out our own bumps? Like how do we venerate our own differences in a world where we’re constantly comparing ourselves to people who appear to have their bumps smoothed out?

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Or other creators who seem to have made peace with their bumps and are actually using them in a way that’s beneficial to their art.

Sean Howard:

So, that’s interesting. So, I could see a positive side of that. Like looking at another creator and saying, “They’ve talked about having the same issues I have and look at what they’re doing, but I feel like there’s a dark side even to that comparison still.” Well, I look at them and I say, “They say, they feel the same as me. They’ve written all those things, but clearly they’re better at it than I am.” Once again, it’s like it’s really easy to see ourselves as somehow broken or not good enough.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh, I have another idea. Going back to what… I like what you’ve said about, we see the creative output of these people, or we see any output like they’re getting out of bed and they’re answering their emails and they’re going to the grocery store. What we see is… And it’s sort of like another version of the social media effect where we curate what parts of our lives other people see and compare themselves to. So, if we look at another creator and we say like, “Wow, they put out a book every year. They’re so on top of things.” We’re not seeing their inner life and we’re comparing our whole messy selves with their highlights. So, I think that that’s part of why comparison can be dangerous. And why like we’re just trying to shape ourselves towards some kind of thing that we perceive as normality. We’re not seeing the whole picture of what’s normal for that person. Does that make sense?

Sean Howard:

Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think as creators, we’re also compounded by the fact that we don’t want normalcy. We idolize often these other creators who have this amazing gifts or things we really respect, but often who don’t fit the norms. They buck the trends and they… I don’t know. Like, often, when I look at creators, I admire. They they tell the system to go F itself. And so, it’s like a double conundrum of…

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Sean Howard:

Like I’m specifically picking those people who have these intense edges and then trying to compare myself to them. I don’t know. It’s just interesting when you bring it up, I was trying to say like how often do I stop and compare myself to, and there’s nothing wrong with this, but 2.5 children, whatever their sexuality, have a house work, both working in corporate America, got the retirement, have everything sort of saddled. I don’t compare myself because I don’t want any of that. Well, some financial security would be nice, but I don’t want those things.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And you know what? For me, it took me a long time to realize that I didn’t want those things. And I think I’m even still realizing that. I left the eight to five work space, but part of me still wanted to be a part of it because it felt normal and it felt like belonging and it felt structured. I actually just finished doing this journaling series with Jen Carrington, who’s a coach in the UK. And she talks about opting out. We get to opt out of certain aspects of what we consider to be a normal lifestyle. And that just blew my mind because it’s like, “Oh, it’s okay if I don’t want to buy a house. It’s okay, if I don’t want kids. It’s okay, if at this time I’m not interested in making more money.” But it takes so long to distill out what you actually want versus what you’ve been told that you want. And what you’ve been told that you should be in what you’ve been told that you can’t be, or you never can or never will be.

Sean Howard:

Yeah. A hundred percent. Getting the diagnosis of being neuro atypical, which is very recent for me, was very freeing.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Tell me more.

Sean Howard:

It happened to me after the age 50, but it was suddenly like, I don’t know. It’s just, it was… I mean, a label is a label, but to have somebody else validate, “Oh no, I see that. And you’re not alone.” And you can get help with some of the things that you want to fix or improve it’s mind altering. When I feel like suddenly I’m comparing the rest of my long life today as just a hamster spinning in a wheel forever fighting these things, I didn’t understand were there as limitations or things I have to compensate for or overcome or whatever. All right, this is crazy, I haven’t thought this through.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Okay, just go for it.

Sean Howard:

What if we just embrace that we’re broken? What’s wrong with owning this fact? What’s wrong with saying, “I don’t want to be norm. I don’t want those things that everybody has… Different cultures have different pressures. I guess, what is the norm or what it is you’re supposed to do? But what if I could just shout to the world, “I’m broken and I love it.” Like it’s okay. Because, otherwise, if feeling broken is something that I don’t own, I’m constantly susceptible to being sold the next fix for whatever it is I’m feeling versus F it, “I’m broken and I’m beautiful and it doesn’t mean that I am not amazing. It does not mean that I cannot get help or do things, but it does mean you don’t have power on me anymore to say.” And I’m talking to my other voice. Like that other voice in me no longer has power on me to say, “Well, you have to do X.” And I’m like, “No, I don’t fit that mold.” I don’t know.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh, I love that. And I’m thinking… Sorry, it’s going to take me a second to mentally digest this. Yeah, because there’s such an interesting gulf between wanting to say, “I’m not broken. I am whole as I am, but also saying I am whole as a broken person.”

Sean Howard:

Yes. This whole idea, what I love about what you’ve talked about earlier is we are actively trying to smooth out our own bumps to fit, to belong, to be like others, to be socially acceptable versus saying, “I am not smooth. I break that mold and it’s okay.” And I think we all… In essence, we’re all broken.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. In many different ways. We’re having a conversation about being neuro-atypical, but like it’s just, we are told we’re broken in so many ways or that there’s something wrong with us.

Sean Howard:

One of the things that my dark career in marketing and advertising taught me was that the easiest thing to do is to prey on people’s deepest fears about themselves. It’s not a good thing.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

No. That’s how deodorant was invented. Did you know that? There wasn’t a need for deodorant until all these marketing executives invented deodorant and then invented the need. They invented the fear that like, “Oh, people are going to think you smell bad if you don’t wear deodorant.” Oh, good. There’s a motorcycle.

Sean Howard:

Awesome.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That’s really good. I like that outside. So, marketing executive said like, “Hey, you smell bad and everybody’s going to shame you and laugh at you.” And people were like, “Oh, I better start buying deodorant.” And like now it’s completely normalized deodorant.

Sean Howard:

That’s like the story, I don’t know. I’ve always wanted to research just how true it is, but there’s the story, it’s been in podcasts and documentaries about how mental illness was introduced into Japan by pharmaceutical companies. It’s the same thing. There wasn’t necessarily a word or it was dealt with in a different way. And suddenly it was this. Anyways, it’s a similar thing. So, when we have a part of ourselves that we are ashamed of, we are in essence, there’s a risk that we can very easily give power to someone else or outside forces or social influence or social pressure.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That makes me think that, when you talk about things that we’re ashamed of, are we ashamed of them because there are things that society have told us about ourselves that are broken, but are actually maybe not broken?

Sean Howard:

It’s funny. If you had asked me that a month ago, Sarah, I would have told you that that’s a hundred percent, I think, the case.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Tell me more.

Sean Howard:

So, I was diagnosed, I think it was just two and a half weeks ago, it’s a very funny story, with ADHD or ADD, whatever it’s called, I should know. But I was so excited in the moment. Like it was strange. I was dreading it, but also then so relieved. But prior to that, I would have agreed. I would have been like, “It’s just social pressures, whatever.” But I do have some intrinsic challenges that I have faced my entire life and it’s just, they seemed so ridiculously small and to tell anyone about them. I was like, “Well, it’s not depression. It’s not this. It’s not life-threatening.”

Sean Howard:

But it really impacted the quality of my life. The way I couldn’t hold jobs. Like so many things now I’m just flowing down and being like, “Oh, that was this maybe.” And so, it’s like, that’s I think the hard part when we look at a part of ourselves and we know something’s not right. And there’s something maybe real there too. But then how do you own that? How do you go… Sorry, let me put in the words better.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Sean Howard:

The moment of recognizing a series of problems that I had, again, it’s just with the diagnosis and those labels change and diagnoses change over the years, but it was a moment of freedom. Because I was like, “Maybe I could move to do something about these things I’ve struggled with my whole life, that didn’t involve blaming myself feeling I’m just not good or able to follow through on anything in my life.” You know, all these weird stories I had in my head. But it was also this really empowering moment of realizing, “I’m okay with that.” Do you know what I mean?

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). If I can jump in?

Sean Howard:

Yeah, please.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

What I’m hearing is we talk about once we have a name for something, once we have a label for something that allows us to not only understand that we’re not, “Broken,” in some, not able to understand way we’re, “Broken,” or different in a way that other people are. So, like you said earlier in our conversation, you know you’re not alone, but you also have this label now. And those words, even having a word and it’s reminding me of that New York times article about languishing. Once you have a name for something you’re like, “Oh, this awful desperate thing that I’m feeling. Oh, it’s languishing.” Or as Austin Kleon says, “Oh, it’s dormancy.” “Oh, okay. Now that I have a label for it, I can understand that these paths are open to me like mentally. And I can travel down this path and decide if I want to treat it this way, or I can treat it this way.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

It becomes understood. It becomes… I don’t know. It becomes something that we are able to process in a different way, I think just because we have a word for it, which blows my mind because there’s good and bad aspects to labeling. I don’t want to be labeled as something because I feel like that puts me into a box, but also there’s great comfort and being put into a box because you’re like, “Oh, I’m in this box with some other people who are experiencing the same thing that I’m experiencing and we’re all in this together.” And when you look at us and you don’t compare people outside of the box to the people inside of the box, we all feel normal and whole, because we’re not comparing ourselves to something that we either have more of or less of than people outside of this box of this label.

Sean Howard:

It’s a hundred percent. And I think it’s hard to our brokenness and own it in a way that’s uplifting if we don’t see a path to functioning. So, I think my answer, if we’d chatted about this a month ago, it would have been very different.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Tell me more about that. Like how your mindset has changed?

Sean Howard:

So, a month ago I lived in coping. I have many, many years of my creative life with insane [inaudible 00:24:15] and strategies of coping, most of which feel now like superstition.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Well, you can’t like… Don’t judge yourself.

Sean Howard:

Yeah. I won’t. But they do. So, many of the things I would try to help myself are not that different from a black cat crossing the street. “Oh, go do this thing.” I’d be like, “Oh.” I’d go, “Here’s one of them.” I haven’t worried today. I have to go check all my to-do list.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes.

Sean Howard:

So, there’s all these things that are… They’re not tied to an actual trigger. That makes sense, right? They’re an atypical response to a trigger. Meaning there is no trigger that is triggering them. They’re just like, “Oh, I haven’t had an X, so I should not worry.” There’s so many. Like my whole life, because I spent so many years trying to figure out why other people could sit down… Here’s the thing, I could not book meetings. I couldn’t do it. It would take a Herculean effort for me to book a meeting. So, I’d be so proud when I would book a hang for our patrons. And then nine months later I’d be like, “Oh, shit. Like I have it in my calendar every first of the month, it’s just book a hang with patrons like play a game, do whatever. I could not book meetings.

Sean Howard:

And so, then I was like, I would try and get other people to book the meeting but anything attached to meeting, I couldn’t do. So, I couldn’t even remind other people to book the meeting. There was this weird cascade thing that I didn’t understand. So, I had all these strategies and things that I think would make it really hard to own. Do what I mean? Like to say to the world, “I can’t sit down and work on a project. I can’t book a meeting.” To try and own those, it just felt so defeated. I felt so defeated to say those words, to admit that.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. So, we’ve been talking about being neuro-atypical. So, I was diagnosed several, several years ago with depression and anxiety and I medicated for it [inaudible 00:26:34] and I have been for the past five years, but having to admit to somebody that you literally could not get out of bed or that I haven’t been able shower to in four days, it’s just like, “I can’t say that to anyone. I’m supposed to be a young professional. I’m like a marketing strategist. I can’t tell people I’m struggling with not being in bed 24 hours a day. Because-

Sean Howard:

I know.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

… instant judgment here.” And I think that can be applied to so many things that we struggle with. I hope I didn’t just derail your train of thought, but I just wanted to…

Sean Howard:

No, you’re dead in the center of this. And it’s so hard to not want to be like, “Oh, well, my thing’s not as… You know, whatever. So, you and I have talked a lot about, and we talk a lot in our industry and I’ve heard you talk about on this show and others that… You have other shows in case you’re wondering.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Sean Howard:

So, I’ve heard this idea of having a writing group, having a creative group that you get together with, but what’s starting to emerge for me is having a group of other people that don’t have to have the same diagnosis as you, but other people who are atypical, who can surround yourselves with and see and hold each other up. Those safe spaces where you can say, “I’ve got a diagnosis.” I recently told our group that we’re in, “I’ve got a diagnosis.” And everyone was just so supportive and wonderful. And that’s so important because I think that’s a step towards saying, “Hey, I am this beautiful shard of glass with all these edges and I don’t need to be smooth, but that’s so much easier to do.” Like I was saying earlier, if we found help, if we found the thing that can help us.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. What was the thing that helped you? And if we’re getting off track, we can like table that until you’re done.

Sean Howard:

No, this is a hundred percent in because what we started today, we’re so down the rabbit hole. But what we started today was this idea of how easy it is for us to believe in that next productivity hack.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes, continue.

Sean Howard:

And this is it. This is it. This is what you just mentioned. It’s it. If we aren’t able to find that help or to find that space where we can be like, “I am beautiful in this way and I am broken and it’s beautiful and I can own it.” Then instead we can come from this place, so, I’ve talked about with marketers can take advantage of which is this shame or this hidden secret. You talked earlier about how from the outside, the people we idolize show us the best of themselves, even though they try to be whatever.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

They try to be like authentic but it’s like safe authentic. It’s an authenticity, they’re like, “I spilled my oatmeal this morning.” And you’re like, “Oh, that’s so authentic. I spilled my oatmeal.” And what they’re not telling you is I broke down and cried in the shower and then I bit my nails until they bled. That’s the stuff they’re not telling us like the real weird.

Sean Howard:

A hundred percent. And we’re not doing it either.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Sean Howard:

I’m not.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I’m not either.

Sean Howard:

And I assume… Yeah. So, because it was the thing I couldn’t say, I was so ashamed. So, what mine would get to at the extreme would be three days where I had to retreat from all contact and hide in the basement and I would have to come up with reasons why I’m canceling meetings. And during those times, what’s funny is because I was sitting there for so long, I would post on social. And I’d be like, “Here’s a photo from… I’d be going through my list of photos and I would do it as if it just happened, I don’t know.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Like, “What’s something that makes me look normal? Oh, look, here’s a selfie I took four weeks ago. And I’m just going to pretend that it’s me now. Oh, yes. I’m picking blueberries. Yeah. It’s winter.”

Sean Howard:

Yeah. Blueberries in winter, they are a winter fruit.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Sean Howard:

And that’s where, when I would emerge… I’d have this energy when I would come out of this, I’d be like, “I’ve got an energy. So, I’ll go and I’m going to buy the new thing or I’m going to sign up for a course.” I would instantly try to find something that I could be like… And then it’s yet another proof point of how I don’t fit. How I’m not good enough because I’ve taken the course. I’ve done all the things and I still haven’t written my book.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I want to look at what’s the relationship between, like you said, “I’m not good enough.” And the word enough, we talk about that a lot because not being enough, not being whole, what’s the relationship between being enough and being broken or is there a difference? Are we talking about synonyms?

Sean Howard:

I love it. I want to take back broken now. It was funny because people don’t realize Sarah and I had this lovely conversation on Twitter about telling each other, “We’re not broken.” And I [inaudible 00:31:31] be like, “I am broken and I’m beautiful.” And you know, I want to call it back. I want to be like, “I am not normal. I’ve never wanted normal. Neither of us, I think have ever wanted normal.” Well, there were times, I think where both of those probably did.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I think we wanted the normalcy of normal. I didn’t actually want to be normal, but I wanted to appear normal.

Sean Howard:

I wanted to be able to fit in. I was like a chameleon. I could go in and do the thing and then come out and be like, [inaudible 00:31:57]

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And from the outside, you’re really good at that.

Sean Howard:

Yeah.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I see you at cons. I see you out and about, and you’re just fun and charming and just like, “Oh, there goes, Sean, what a great guy?”

Sean Howard:

Cons are hell for me.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Me too. I go through like this healing phase after I go to a conference or a convention. And you said earlier, like talking about being in the basement for three days.

Sean Howard:

Yeah, same. Building up to a con, I finally have to start pulling back and I have to be very careful who I get around. I have to be our only around safe people that don’t pull energy out of me because I’m trying to build up the battery so that I could then survive over three days.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Safe people, I love that term. And that’s exactly what you were talking about earlier about that community that you can trust, like having a safe community.

Sean Howard:

And everyone’s different there. I think there are people who get energy from being out in certain groups or situations, and then there’s people like me and probably you it sounds like, who we give off energy in those situations and we deplete our batteries. And it’s funny. I don’t mind doing that when I’m with someone and deep one-on-one, but I find that doesn’t deplete my battery.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Very same.

Sean Howard:

So, whichever person you are, I think it’s recognizing how do you manage that so that you have energy when you need energy. And I think that having that group of people around you that does give you energy where you feel like this gives me back something, it’s so important. And I urge everyone to find a safe place, to be able to shout that you’re not normal. And to have everyone just be like, “Cool,” and smile and be like, “Yeah.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And even celebrate-

Sean Howard:

And supportive.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

… you. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Sean Howard:

Yeah. Because maybe we only have one day out of a week where we can get work done. We can’t book a meeting if our life depends on it or get any tasks done that we’re supposed to do and only work on other things. Like whatever our dilemma is around creating, there’s something in having confidence in saying, “That’s okay, that’s enough.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. Despite what everyone, or everything around you is telling you.

Sean Howard:

And seems to be telling you.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. If I was only working one day a week and I accidentally let slip to people who knew me, “Oh, I only work one day a week.” What kind of comments would you receive? But then who are you announcing that to? Do you care about those comments? I don’t know. So, is it up to us to normalize our own normal to typicalize our own atypicalness? You know how to make up some lies?

Sean Howard:

I think it is, but I think we need that space to do it then. And maybe it’s possible to do it through meditation, but I have forever failed. And now I’m realizing habits are a problem with the diagnosis I have. So, my whole life I’ve had trouble making habits. And it’s another thing I thought, “Oh, I can’t get up and write every morning. So, I’m not as good as list of authors here or list of creators.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I just want to go back into the past and tell the past Sean and anybody else who’s listening, who identifies with us. You are wonderful just as you are. You are beautiful. You are meaningful. You are worthy. You are worthwhile. You are all of these good and beautiful things. And we’ve all been on this track for so long where our self-worth, I don’t think really comes from ourselves, I think it comes from what gets projected onto us. And it’s part of the good and bad nature of us being to label other people and have those labels stick.

Sean Howard:

Yeah. And I wonder if I hadn’t been able to come to terms with the fact that I was broken in some way, but in a beautiful, well, all broken way, would it have been a little easier for me to have found help? I don’t know.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Tell me a little bit about that. Like what finally spurred you to look for help and how can people listening decide, “Oh, is it time for me to look for help?”

Sean Howard:

That’s hard because we have so many defenses that we use to not acknowledge. I don’t think I’m alone in saying, “I avoid the doctor and the dentist with every fiber of my being.” I think it’s a common thing we all face. I think as humans, like you’ve talked about, if we’re spending our life comparing ourselves constantly, then, the last thing we want to do is acknowledge that we have a problem. The last thing we want to do is get proof that all those fears are right. That we aren’t good enough to be whatever, even though that can free us up in so many ways to move towards the work we want to do. So, I was just always [inaudible 00:36:56]

Sean Howard:

I think I was just always afraid. I think this year of COVID from my understanding from talking to my doctor has just caused a massive influx of people looking for adult ADHD, diagnosis and other diagnoses I’m sure. So, it was a friend who is a very good friend and just kept… She would not give up on me. She would send me videos. She was constantly on me. And the problem with me is I call myself a reversed polarity responder. Growing up in high school, my dad was like, “Sean, I don’t care what you do, but you are going to college.” I didn’t apply to colleges. I fight. And so, I was setting my heels in, but then one of our group in our writing circle, our creative circle, told the story of being diagnosed. And I had so many questions like, “Are you not creative anymore? Are you all these things that I’ve been told?”

Sean Howard:

So, I think it was just my social network. I started to see people getting diagnosed as adults. And then I was sort of on the fence. I’m like, “Am I going to… Maybe I’ll book an appointment.” And then my partner, Eli, booked an appointment ahead of me. This whole time I was learning. I was like, “Hey, I think you have this too.” And he’d be like, “No.” And I’d be like, “How about this? And you have that. And I have this.” And I’d be finding facts online. And then he went and booked the appointment before me. And so, I’m very competitive. So, I was like, “No, I’m going to and get it.” Anyway, he beat me to it.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love that so much.

Sean Howard:

Yeah.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I love that so much. So, now we know how to motivate you. It’s with competition.

Sean Howard:

It’s true. I hate to admit it. But like if anyone out there, if you’re struggling to do things that other people think it’s easy… I don’t know how to put this. Okay. I’ll put it this way. I, even now, I’ve spent my whole life believing that there’s no such thing as people who can sit down with a to-do list they made the night before and do it. I’m like, “No, it doesn’t exist. No, you’re lying. No, it’s a drain. You’re just writing your book or whatever, to get people to pay you money. And I bought it and I’m reading it.” There’s a book, Deep work. I love it.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. I love it. I have it right here next to me.

Sean Howard:

Deep Work is designed for very intense projects. This is a bit of a joke, but I was using Deep Work in order to make sure I made dinner. I was using Deep Work for everything. I was like, “If I live this like a robot, maybe this will work.” So, I was overcompensating for my inability to sit down and do work. One time a client… I was working in the agency world, it was one of these big finance firms with floor after floor of cubicles, they’re literally just… That you say sea of cubicles, it’s a sea of cubicles. And I literally wasn’t allowed to go to the client anymore. I got removed from the account because we would have to come in through the elevator and they had to meet you because of security. And they would lead you through and I would do the same thing every time.

Sean Howard:

It’s not because I was trying to be a jerk. I was like, “What did they do? And what did they do?” And I would just go past each person and they’d stop but they’d go, “Oh, they’re an actuary that does blah, blah.” And I’m like, “What about them?” And they’d be like, “Well, they’re also an actuary that does whatever.” And I’m like, “What about them?” And like, there was just hundreds, thousands of these people just sitting on a computer, typing and doing their checklists like a monotonous work. And literally, I didn’t believe they were real. I was like, “These cannot be real humans. It’s not possible.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Just because this was so-

Sean Howard:

Alien.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

… like foreign to your own experience.

Sean Howard:

Like Alien to me.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Okay.

Sean Howard:

I could not sit down and do a monotonous task every day at a certain time and then finish a checklist and go, “Okay, we’ll pick up there tomorrow and go home and let’s woo, feel good.” But I literally could not have done it because it was not possible for me to even do that work not to say even now I’d want to, but you know what I mean? Like that disconnect between what I knew some people could do in the world, because they’re clearly doing it and what I thought was possible for a human to do, it’s hard to put into words, but if you’re out there listening and you’re like, “Wow, yeah, I really just can’t do certain tasks.” And you’re feeling like that’s a sign. It’s a sign that maybe there is… It’s worth getting a diagnosis or whatever. Or any other issue. But for me, I just thought I needed more motivation.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Wow. Or more willpower.

Sean Howard:

More willpower, thank you. More willpower. I just can’t commit.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Sean Howard:

Even though I’m in a relationship for 20 some odd years. Yeah. No, I can’t commit.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. And there’s… Oh my God. Oh, because you feel broken. And it’s like broken in a bad way and we are broken-

Sean Howard:

In a shameful way.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes. Thank you. Thank you. That’s what I’m looking for. And it’s like, “This is how I am and you can view it as broken. You can view it as whole, but it’s who I am and what I am.” And judging ourselves by what we’re capable of and by what other people say we lack, that motivation, that willpower, whatever it is.

Sean Howard:

Because we fear it’s true.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. Like, “Oh.”

Sean Howard:

Because we know we can’t do the thing.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

“I can’t do the thing. I’m less than everyone else.” I mean, it’s my worst gym experiences or whatever you call it. If you call it physical education or gym class or whatever you call it, it’s like, “Oh, everybody can climb the rope except for Sarah.” I can’t climb the rope.

Sean Howard:

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And I couldn’t do the presidential fitness. I don’t if you had that in Canada.

Sean Howard:

Oh, that destroyed me. I did that in the [crosstalk 00:42:57]

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That’s right because you’re… Yeah

Sean Howard:

I was just a mess on the floor.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I couldn’t do the v-sit bridge.

Sean Howard:

I need to make up a third station.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Well, it turns out I couldn’t do the v-sit bridge because my spine was like… I have a lot of medical issues and I had very severe scoliosis and they didn’t find out until after I couldn’t do the v-sit bridge but like… Ah, I don’t even know where I’m going with this other than Hmm, have it, yeah.

Sean Howard:

We need to form the beautifully broken club.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And the secret to the beautifully broken club is that we’re all in it.

Sean Howard:

Yeah. But not everyone’s ready.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Sean Howard:

Not everyone’s ready to join the beautifully broken club and then support each other in getting help. You know, you are beautiful.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Sean Howard:

And even with all those fears and all the things you feel aren’t good enough, you’re still beautiful and amazing. And then being in a space where people can share their stories.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

It’s so important.

Sean Howard:

In my case, getting medicated was mind boggling. It was like, “It’s such an overnight transformation in my case. And I know it’s not always that way.” I mean, there’s still issues, but that validation suddenly, that it’s not just a diagnosis, but it’s treatable, it’s just life.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Well, I shared earlier in our group, I didn’t start the Write Now podcast or Girl In Space or any of my other projects until after I had gotten on medication for my anxiety and depression. Before that, I couldn’t even handle like going to work every day.

Sean Howard:

And yet you did.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And I did.

Sean Howard:

That was weird. You did have a job and you were someone say successful in marketing, right?

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah.

Sean Howard:

Not to sound like people would say, “You are successful.” And it’s like, “Yeah.” And so, it adds even more weight to this thing that you are struggling to do.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Because I’m also like, “Oh, is there a way that I can get straight A’s? Can I get an A plus in doing this because I’m going to push myself to do it?” It might not be healthy, but like-

Sean Howard:

Competitive.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Sean Howard:

Yeah, a hundred percent, 1000%.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yeah. But also I didn’t get help until somebody else told me to.

Sean Howard:

Same.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And I think this is really what’s important about communities and safe spaces and finding people who you can relate to and who care about you, like genuinely care about you. Long story short, my boss noticed that I was not okay with the Capitol and in the Capitol and took me out for beers and said, “Hey, I think that you should see someone and there’s no shame in it. A lot of people in the office are on medication. And if you are too it’s okay, but just maybe go talk to somebody, you’ll feel a lot better.” And it was just that really loving sense of being reached out to that just… So, if you’re listening to this and you’re having feelings that you’re not okay, please let us tell you, if there’s no one in your life that’s telling you, “Hey, I want you to take care of yourself and maybe see a doctor or see someone.” Let us tell you right now, please take care of yourself and maybe go see someone, make an appointment, talk to a therapist.

Sean Howard:

And welcome.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Yes.

Sean Howard:

Welcome to our beautifully broken club.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Welcome to the beautifully broken club. You’re one of us and we’re really, really happy to have you and to host you and to hold space for you here with us.

Sean Howard:

That’s amazing. I think that’s an end.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I think it is too. Wow. Sean, thank you for being here. I want people to know how amazing you are. We didn’t do like a big intro. And so, I want to do an outro here that says, “Hey, I’m talking today with Sean Howard, who is one of my dearest friends and a creator and just such an amazing person.” Can you tell us where people can find you? And if they want to consume/download everything you’ve ever made, how can they do that?

Sean Howard:

Well, the first thing they need to do is go and download all of Girl In Space.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh my God.

Sean Howard:

That’s what they need to do.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Oh, Sean.

Sean Howard:

And then when you’re done with that, come back to this episode that you’ve forgotten about, and you can go to Fable and Folly and find all of our shows at fableandfolly.com. It’s always a joy. Sarah, you are one of my dearest friends and this was a challenging day. And it’s like this new… Now that I have this, we talked about this earlier. I could not book meetings. And so, I was really proud of myself when I reached out and said, “Hey, I saw on the chat, you’re having a tough day, Sarah.”

Sarah Rhea Werner:

You did. I’m just now putting together that you did the thing.

Sean Howard:

I reached out and I said, “I know you have a tough day. What if rather than write this thing, what if we just did a call and transcribed it or whatever.” And then I talked about times and that was a big-

Sarah Rhea Werner:

That was big.

Sean Howard:

… deal for me. And it was relatively easy to do. I mean, A [inaudible 00:47:54] talking to you it’s so fun, but then B because of what’s happened since my diagnosis and the medication. That would have been very difficult for me before.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

Living proof. I love it. And I fricking love you. Oh my God. I’m so excited for you.

Sean Howard:

I’m excited for you.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

I’m so excited for you and please keep taking care of yourself.

Sean Howard:

You too.

Sarah Rhea Werner:

And those of you who are listening, keep taking care of yourselves. I hope that today’s conversation has put things into a new light for you in a good way. Again, thank you to you Sean. Please check out Fable and Folly. Is it fableandfolly.com? I’ll make sure there’s a link to that in the show notes for today’s episode, as well as make sure that you’re listening to Sean’s shows, Albus Salix, Civilized, all of the shows that you’ll find there under Fable and Folly are amazing and so, so good. But, yeah, Sean, thank you again for being here today. And I’m very excited now to share this episode with everyone. So, thank you.

Sean Howard:

Me too.